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Index to sections (on this page) with a number of queries

Bridge CBC Eastern Arms Co H&R FIE FMJ
Light Loads (inc 2")
and brass loading
19 Nov 2009
Just a word of thanks for a great website. I've wanted a Win 9410 for ages, and now I've got one! Best cartridges I've found for it in the UK are the Lyalvale 2 1/2" 14g no 6, much more grunt than the very common fourlongs and a bit cheaper. It's a 3 shot and muti choke! Gives a very tight pattern on full choke but managed to get 14 on the skeet range last visit! Wouldn't recommend this as a starter gun for the young, it's quite heavy and expensive for a 410 but so much fun to shoot with! (and lots of jokes about skeet on horseback etc etc). Took a video if of interest, hope link works or just search for black5f on youtube.
Again, great website!
Best Regards
03 Nov 2009
Hi there,
Im currently trying to trace down the make of a 4/10 shotgun that was left to me by my grandad. Its got no known make on it and for my own personal satisfaction id like to find out who made it ive posted all details here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055583558&page=1 maybe you would be able to help shed some light on it. Ive included pictures aswell.. look forward to you reply.
Kind regards
01 Feb 2008

Hi does any one no where I can buy a Winchester 9410 from? I know it's out of production now,
but there still might be one somewhere.
Since I live in the UK, it has to be a Traditional or a Ranger. 24inch barrel.
Can pick up anywhere in mainland UK

My E Mail is <removed>

Marbles Game Getter 1921 Version

21 Jan 2008

Find the Original Index card for your Marbles Game Getter

Phil, I am back at my PC now and know how to send you the link to the Marble's Game Getter index card page.
Marshall Williams


Marshall, Many Thanks, Phil.




Marshall Williams article, Marbles Game Getter

7 Jan 2008
Hello There:

      I have noticed some interest here, in 410 handguns, and thought that perhaps someone would enjoy a first hand account. I presently own a pair of 410 handguns. The first is a Thompson Contender, with the 45/410 barrel.
The second is the new Taurus Judge.
      Of the two, I have to say that the single shot Contender, with it’s removable choke, and 3” chamber, is probably the more capable gun; but the five shot Judge is quite a bit more fun. Rather than repeat everything here, I will just leave links to the pages on my site.


      Incidentally, whenever I write to anyone in the U.K. I feel obligated to offer my sympathies about what has happened to gun ownership over there. Still, you have the vote. I imagine that it is always possible to get reasonable people into office (If only ... Ed.) , who will show some respect, and acknowledge the rights of free men, to be treated as adults and to provide for their own defense; but I digress. At any rate, I hope you enjoy the information, and best wishes from the United States.

Neal Pritchett
7 Jan 2008

Hello All! You have a great site! Thanks! I'm fan of the 410. I have an H&R that I had built into a Foster rifled slug shooter. It is very accurate. I shoot Winchester superX 2.5' 1/5oz. slugs which seem to be best for this gun, shot others out of it but these are great. Sent pictures for you, hope you get them. Thanks again for a great 410 site. Ray

05 Jan 2008
I have a el faisan bloo bar  spainish 410 shotgun and I require parts the serial number is  34413410 76
please reply where I can order theses parts
Luigi Buono Montreal quebec canada
thank you  
24 Dec 2007


What a pleasant surprise to see such an informative website.  
(Your Welcome, Ed.)

Maybe you could also help me with a query, I'm looking for 410 cartridge supplies in Scandinavia, could you point me in the right direction?

With many thanks,


21 Dec 2007

hi Fellow Fourten Fans---
Because of a physical handicap that limits me to the use of one hand, I like a .410 handgun. I thought that installing a choke in a Taurus 4410 "JUDGE" (Taurus Website, and video) would solve a lot of problems: the Thompson Contender has a choke, but no fast second shot; the Magnum Research BFR has a choke and a fast second shot, but the thing is so heavy you need a gunbearer to lug it around.
So, I prevailed upon my friend Mike Ahlman (http://www.ahlmans.com/) at Ahlman's in Morristown, MN, to tool up for the installation. Because the Judge's barrel is not round, this is a more difficult gunsmithing job than just putting it in a lathe. The gun turned out GREAT! As tight a pattern as the Thompson from a handy-sized double-action revolver with five shots.
Thompson .410 chokes, by the way, were made two ways. The early EXTERNAL chokes that are no longer manufactured were choked FULL and do pattern a little tighter than the INTERNAL versions currently available which are choked MODIFIED. These chokes, by the way, are removeable so the shooter still has the 45 Long Colt, buckshot, and slug options.
Jim Pence

10 Dec 2007
As well as collecting .410's I also collect 32 and 24 bores. I have a Beretta 686 o/u 24b built in 1984 and I know of 3 others from the same batch. Also a Lebue Corrally 24b boxlock ejector which is a very pretty little gun. I have an Italian o/u ejector 24 bore for sale with its own pair of 32 bore barrells both 30" bored 1/4 & 1/2. Reason for sale, I know of a Greener 24 bore side by side I would like to buy. The gun is at SPORTARM of Dorchester for those who may be interested 01305 268001
Andy Pearce
21 Nov 2007

I have plans to acquire a Taurus "Judge" revolver right away which is chambered in .45 Long Colt and 2 1/2" .410 for use as a home and car defense firearm.  Taurus has announced production of the same revolver but that will chamber 3" .410 as well as 2 1/2".  
The firearm that will chamber 2 1/2" is currently available, but the 3" is not.  My question is, considering my intended use, am I better off to wait for the 3" model?  I can't find any data that tells me how much more effective the 3" shell is over the 2 1/2" for my purpose.  It would appear that the 3" will hold 11/16 oz of shot versus 1/2 oz for the 2 1/2" shell.
Winchester shows  at
that the 2 1/2" shell holds 3 oz of shot and the 3" holds 5 oz of 000 size shot.  I can't believe that is ounces and tend instead to believe in buckshot they mean "pellets" instead of "ounces". (ed. I believe so too)
Any input from those more learned than I would be appreciated.  If you wish to see a video on the "Judge", see http://www.taurususa.com/video/taurus-theJudge-video.cfm
Other details on the Taurus Judge Here

William in Ft Worth, Texas, USA,

I gather that William has now aquired a Taurus Judge (Ed)

02 Nov 2007

Dear fourten fans

After two years of searching I have finally found a double barrel  .410 pistol. It is a Tukaway but identical to the “popular pistolet” advertised by B Webster for £1-7-6 (£1-37p). It is in great condition and was found wrapped up in an oily rag in a keepers cellar.
John Patten.

30 Oct 2007
There is a new 410 fully rifled slug barrel for TC encore,contender and g2, coming on the market soon.
It is the answer to all you 410 lovers dreams. Shoots a 350 gr slug at 1500 fps, and is a tack driver. 
Check it out at   hoeningbigboresouth.com  , they will be taking orders soon.
thanks ED
29 Sept 2007

I have acquired an El Chimbo 410 double barrel w/exposed triggers that has had the trigger and hammer assembly taken out and lost.  I am looking for parts to get this up and running again.  The firing pins and springs are still there but no triggers, hammers, springs and any other parts that make up the trigger group.  This gun has been manufactured under different names also.  I can't find schematics anywhere for it so I don't know what the parts even look like.  Does anyone know where I can find parts for this little gun?  I am in central US.  My e-mail address is .....  Thanks, Brandon.

20 June 2007
For sale:
A brand new boxed set of 'Chamber Mates' bore reduction tubes (not full barrel length).
These are .410 (9inches long), 28 gauge and 20 gauge.
They are for a 12 gauge shotgun, and have fully functioning ejectors.
For more info contact Stuart Crane at: <removed>

See www.buckandslug.co.uk

04 June 2007

On the "Continent", particularly in France, if you ask for  .410 cartridges, you will be offered 3" Magnums. they don't seem to know about the 2 1/2" length, but if you want a 2" long cartridge, you have to ask for 12mm !!
Is this chamber size (+ or -) I think the same applies to 32 Gauge, called 14mm in France. A large variety of shot sizes is available including Brennecke/Wonder/Solengo solid slugs, all providing you have a French "Permis De Chasser"

I am lucky to possess two Browning O/U, B25 .410s, one in B2G grade, the other a"Lightning", American market version of the Belgian made B25. Both are 3" chambered, and I use them both for Game and Clays, and only slighly feel slightly disadvantaged. They are certainly on a par with my identical 28 Bore

I am now looking at re-barreling a suitable B25, to make a matching 32 bore, and eventually a 24 bore, just keeping it "small and beautiful

Paul M.

25 May 2007

My friend has a Stevens .410 model 59a. She doesn't know much about guns and would like to know how much it is worth.  I know it is very old and it needs to be reconditioned. If anyone could let me know as much information about this particular weapon i would appreciate it very much.


if you can help me out or need anymore info on the shotgun. Thank you!

I saw your question of the 4-10 website.

The Stevens Model 59A is one of a fairly long-lived series of bolt-action .410 shotguns manufactured by the Savage Arms Company. 
The earliest version of this gun was called the Model 39, and was introduced in about 1934.  The series continued until about 1973 when the Model 59 C was discontinued.  The differences in model number and suffixes relate to such things as whether the stock is walnut or hardwood, whether the triggerguard is cast, stamped, or made of plastic, whether the stock has impressed checkering, and such minor differences.  All models are functionally similar.
In general, bolt action shotguns fall into the category of utility grade guns, good and serviceable, but aimed at the niche market just above the simplest single barrel guns and priced accordingly. There is little collector interest in this class of shotgun and its value lies in its usefulness for shooting and hunting. Condition affects value and my wild-eyed guess is that value could run from about $50 for a gun in poor condition to about $150 for one in excellent condition.
Gun Parts Corporation lists parts for this model.
As noted, the gun was made by Savage Arms Company.  Savage bought out Stevens in the 1920s and thereafter applied the Stevens brand name to many Savage products, usually, but not always, a plain version of a gun which had another name or model number under the Savage trademark.  In fact, Savage still follows the practice. 
Hope this helps.
Marshall William

This message will be moved to the Savage/Stevens page

25 May 2007

I have a question that you most likely can help me with answering, as you have helped me before.
How would you recommend loading 410 bore in 444 Marlin Brass, using CCI 300 large pistol primers with the goal of achieving THE LIGHTEST POSSIBLE recoiling loads; in the order of 1/2-oz at 900fps or even less?

The above question allows you to tell me what you would do, with, except as noted, any components you would recommend.
If it matters, the reloading supplies I have already acquired, some from you, some from elsewhere, and therefore would like to use if possible, are:

Cases: RP 444 Marlin brass, unprimed
Magtecch 410 borse, brass, unprimed
Powder: Alliant 2400
Wads/Corks/Shotcups,etc:  Lyman 45-cal Gas checks,
Cabelas 45-cal Overpowder wads, fiber, 0.030 thick, 0.462 diameter
federal No.410SC one-piece shotcup/wad,
CCI 45-cal shotshell (for making 45-pistol into shotshells; the little blue plastic things)

PLUS: i am willing to cut out my own cork/cardboard/wax wads etc using an empty brass case; and am also willing to salvage components from any of the various commercial loads.  I am even willing to sacrifice a dacron-stuffed pillow for holding a minimum powder charge close to the flash hole, if necessary.

You may be wondering why I am asking:  I am teaching my 6-year-old son, and he loves the shotgun.  He likes to see lots of little holes in the paper from just one shot.  
Performance of the load is not really much consideration.  It will be used for training, making little holes in a target at close range.  This load is not intended for hunting even the smallest game, and not even for moving targets.  If the load does perform well it would be icing on the cake.

i tried him on an old single-shot 20-ga using Fiocchi Ultra-Low recoil trainer loads (7/8-oz@1050fps, I believe)  with the buttstock under his armpit and me pushing on it from behind so he gets alot of muzzle flip, but no recoil punch.   But even then, if i put that to his shoulder he wouldn't like it.  He's strong, but skinny.

I found an old 410 Revelation 336 single-shot and its a much lighter gun.  But if I can load it with super-duper light (dare i say, pathetically light) loads he should be fine, as well as being able to hold the gun up by himself!

Also, this gun s so old it doesn't even have a serialnumber, so firing the lightest loads possible would increas the safety of using this old, and well-used, firearm.

Thanks in advance for your time- again!  
Have a look at Light Loads too - Ed.

This message will be moved to the Light Loads page

8 Feb 2007

Wonder if anyone out there can help me? I’ve been a professional pest controller here in the UK for more years than I care to remember. As well as using .243, .22LR and 17 HMR rifles and various air weapons and 12 gauge / bore shotguns, my armoury contains a home-made (via gunsmith) Baikal 410 shot pistol and a Mossberg 410 Hushpower. I’ve probably “solved” more pest control problems with the 410’s than any other weapon. The problem that I have is that I am looking to reload / create some very light loads for both the pistol and the Hushpower, but can’t find anyone in the UK that can supply me with 410 dies. I’m currently experimenting with converted British 303 brass. Any advice regarding sourcing 410 dies would be much appreciated.
Many thanks
Lee Anthony Marshfield R.P.P.T  
CONTRACT KILLERS PEST CONTROL LTD  -   www.contractkillers-uk.co.uk

Have a look at Light Loads too - Ed

3 Jan 2007
I'm looking for a "Victor" or "Victor Special" .410 hammerless shotgun, either single or
double barrel (side by side). These guns were manufactured from 1892 to 1930 by the
Crescent Firearms Co of Norwich, Connecticut when the company bought out by Stevens. No problems for British or American sources as I have RFD contacts in both countries.
Kind regards,
Allan Sanders
Dec 2006
I own a Saiga shotgun.  As you know, it will only cycle 3" ammunition.  Is there anybody out there in
UK loading 3" 410 slugs in plastic hulls ???  Even better anybody reloading Barnaul metal cases which were designed for said Shotgun. 

Look forward to hearing from you

Oct 2006
I have a Double Barrel .410 shot gun made by Wilkinson (Pall Mall London) I need some information regarding its availability and the price, as I have been told that Wilkinson & Sons were famous for Swords and they only made some Custom Guns only Gift Versions for very special occasions as this gun was also a gift for my Grand Father and now I own it, along with a huge stock of other Gifted Weapons (including 2 Double Barrel shot guns 12. gauge of Ward & Sons side by side, one with hammers and other hammerless… a completely carved Colt Revolver .38… a Webley .445 Revolver… a Winchester 12 gauge Double Barrel shot gun… and a few more Pistols, Guns and Rifles)
Will be waiting for your prompt response and would appreciate any useful information on the matter…
16 Aug 2006
Hello ,can any one help with info on choke extensions as I have two .410s with barrels under 24 inch being held at my local rfd, I wish to extend the tubes to 24 inch via permantly fixing choke extensions.
I have heard of  this done on .22 rifles then smoothboring them to turn them into shotguns, I also had the idea of sleeving one down to .22 smoothbore and adjusting the firing pin to suit the rimfire shotshell, has any one had any experiance with a project like this before.
The items are a garcia bronko and a breda hadygun. Any help please as the dealer is not being very helpfull.
thanks. johny.
19 May 2006

I have a little Belgian folding .410 as per pictures attached . The Rolling block action (I think) makes it a little unique. I’d be interested to hear if  this is same as the one of your youth…
Grant Smeaton


24 May 2005

I am looking for a
Please can any help me with a decent picture of the above gun. I was taught by my father to shoot with one of those excellent guns, they realy are the ideal gun for rabbiting.
Regards Colin Matthews

04 May 2006
This one is Belgian and marked 12mm.  The side lever, when depressed, allows the action to open and the case is ejected when the top lever springs up.  A fresh round can then be inserted on the ramp and fed into the chamber.  Depressing the top lever then cocks the action.  After firing the process of pushing down the side lever repeats the process.  Looks a bit like a Martini action at first glance.  I would be grateful for any information on this gun.  Michael

08 April 2006

I have just purchased a “Tuckaway” .410 pistol with a 12” barrel any info or history would be appreciated.


Update from John :On the grip it says British Manufacture. No 11 is stamped on both the action and barrel. It has a Birmingham proof mark for 21/2 cartridge and 7/16 once of shot. I have just found a name. Manufactured by Modern Arms Co Ltd. London & Bromley .

03 July 2006
I have also just acquired a Tukaway .410 pistol. Mine is number 392 and has London nitro proofs for 2 1/2" cartridges.

The Modern Arms Co was at 133 Fenchurch Street in 1923. 110 Southwark St 1924 - 25. 28 Marshalsea Rd SE1 1926 - 1927. Thereafter it was the Modern Arms Co Ltd at the same address until 1932. It moved to 58 Southwark Bridge Road SE1 in 1933 and is last listed at that address in 1942. I suspect it was bombed out. The company then operated from the Marco Works, Pembroke Road, Widmore, Bromley in Kent from c. 1942 - 1957.

My pistol has three threaded holes in its butt for a detachable stock. I have seen Tukaways in .22RF.

Bill Harriman

2 April 2006
Dear .410 enthusiasts...
Yesterday I obtained a side by side shotgun. It has been made in Luik, Belgium and it is in good condition.
Can somebody tell me what this gun is worth? Or can somebody tell me something more about it?
More pictures on request.
Thanx in advance,
Kim Jacobs

16 Mar 2006
I shoot .410 in competition and use Fiocchi 3" 19.5g No 8's.
I live in the Borders and cannot get them for another 6 - 8 weeks from my normal supplier. Does anyone have any info where I can get them? Cheers. John
19 Jan 2006

Does anybody have any experience of the Hushpower range of sound moderators for the 4-10 shotgun, specifically the 9" tube available to fit to a normal single barrel machine.
I would appreciate any advice............If I get one I'll let you know how I get on with it.

Is all UK 4-10 fourlong 2 3/4" no.6 ammunition sub sonic ??  
(No,  Ed.)

Thank you.
David Nott

6 Dec 2005

 Greetings All,
I have been re-loading the venerable .410 in 2 1/2" and 3" sizes for some time now, and have met with some success using the CF and PT types of hull with different compositions. But, when looking for information on a 21g load only an H110 powdered example is freely available !!!
Tim Woodhouse has done a fantastic job with his "Because it's there" publication, I have read it cover to cover several times (the new edition should be as good) and he does mention the BIG load - but is a little coy as to it's exact composition ??
So, my question is, does anyone have this tried and tested information ?????

I normally use SP3 and CX2000 as a powder/primer mix and would like to continue if possible without having to purchase a separate propellant!!!
Thanks in advance

Ian Burrell

15 Aug 2005
I just came across your site whilst looking for info on the Winchester 9410 I have just bought.
I wondered if you are aware of any cartridge preference for this gun that it will cycle cleanly ?

I used it for the first time today with some RIO 410 (11g/#6 shot) cartridges & whilst it worked fine when it reloaded, I had a lot of jams & failed lifts. On checking this when I got home, it seems that the lift gate is to tight for these shells. The rolled nose area is releaved, as is the rim area where it is channeled to. But the centre area is to tight & it takes excessive force to
lift the shell through this tight spot to the reloading position !

Thus the only conclusion I can draw, is that these shells are too wide for the action ! This is reinforced by the number of hard extractions I got as well.

Any recommendations as to sheels this gun cycles well would be much appreciated.

Many Thanks

Chris W.
30 Aug 2005

The 9410 was solved as follows;-
The basic problem was that the shells according to the image & data on your site should have an external diameter of 11.3mm, where as the RIO cartridges I was using have an OD of 11.8mm.
The 9410, has two shell holder cheek plates internally that are screwed to the outer frame from the out side, these had an internal gap of 11.5mm & the RIO's were being squeezed on the lift & left in an oval shape ! I removed these cheek plates & took some material off the back side where it abutts the frame, thus hiding the mod & making it reversable if it hadn't worked. I took approx .25mm off each cheek plate & that improved the feed lifting no end, but it was still tight due to a feed bump on the right cheek piece. I took another .1mm off each piece & this improved the
situation even more. I didn't want to take more off, as I was only experimenting with one shell type & others could be slimmer, but I really needed to lose more metal to get a slick feed.

I had correspondence with Matthew Birch after finding his site & he informed me that Winchester had added a large magnet to the back of the lift plate that holds the steel shotshell heads in place on the lift plate when they leave the magazine tube. This gave me the option of removing
more metal from the cheek pieces. I decided that the feed bump was not really required because the shell has already started to enter the chamber before the lift ramp gets lowered as the action closes, so I got vicious with a file & removed the feed bump all together. The action works a treat now & I've tried a few shells & they all feed flawlessly.

Now on to the extraction issue. Having fixed the feed issue, I ran in to an extraction issue where the fired shell would half extract before seperating from the extractor claw & bolt face, but not all the time. I looked at the RIO shells & at some Fiochi & Eley ones which did not seem to suffer
the same problem. The conclusion I have drawn is very simple. If you look closely at the rim head on the shells you use, you will see that some (Eley) have a very well defined rim on the side nearest the plastic, but others (Fiochi) have a less well defined rim & the RIO's have a very
poorly defined rim. This is an average conclusion, some Eley are not great, but not as bad as the Fiochi or RIO's.

By defined I mean look side ways on to the shell so that with the rim at the top, the case forms the vertical of a T with the top of the T being the rim. Now look closely at the lower part of the rim & on ones that fail to extract, you will find that instead of the 90 degree angle between the
brass/steel body & the rim, its more like 45 degrees or some angle in between. Thus the extractor claw has no firm purchase & when you try to extract the case, it pulls so far out until the sloppy head rim angle causes the extractor, claw to lose its grip & the extraction fails. Some cartridges
also have been formed off center, so the rim is fine for most of its circumference, but some parts have practically no rim for the claw to grip !

These rims work fine in O/U or single barrels that have large circumference extractors, but not very well on any type of bolt action that has a small extractor originally designed to pull exactly machined brass cartridge heads, not cheap steel pressed shotshell heads !  I think you will find that your Mossberg is suffering from the same problem. The longer the shell case the more likely the claws grip is to fail due to the leverage angles & the rounded edge to shotshell rims, verses the nice square edges of machined brass cartridges which keep them in the head recess
on the bolt until they hit the ejector !

Check it out & let me know what you think.I'm going to stick with Eley & look at reloading brass cartridges. The .444 Marlin looks like the right thing for my 2.5" requirements. Please feel free to use this info on your site.


Chris W.

Many thanks for this, Ed.

10 June 2005

Does anyone have info on a .410 Connecticut Valley Arms single shot. The barrel indicates made in Italy. It is hammerless top lever with crossbolt saftey on trigger guard. Appreciate the help.

5 May 2005
Has anyone located a UK supplier for the Marlin. 410 to date?
I've had my Winchester for almost 2 years now and I love it but I'd like a Marlin too.
If anyone has any info. please share!
5 May 2005
Can anyone please help me out with reloading information on the
SAGA .410 gauge (or, as they advertise, the '36 gauge) 2.5 inch hulls?
SAGA is becoming quite popular here in South Australia and are the cheapest of the 2.5 inch shells to buy, but I have no reloading data at all - any info, particular on what type of wad, with WAA209 primers, Win 296 powder and 1/2 oz shot to use?
Would the WAA41 wad be OK to use in this shell?
A further query:  I note Winchester recommend using the WAA410HS wad in their HS hulls (both 2.5 and 3.0 inch) - I'm finding it hard to obtain the WAA410HS wad - would there be any problems in using the WAA41 wad in this hull?
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Peter Whellum
1 May 2005

Quorn, South Australia.

G'day all,
Further to my posting of 5 May 2005.
I decided to go ahead and reload several SAGA .410 2.5 inch shells with Win209 primer, 13.5 gn Win 296 powder and using the Win WAA41 wad (using 1/2 oz 6 shot) - the following comments may be of interet to others:

1.  I had to increase the wad seating pressure in my MEC 600 Jnr reloader to an average of '50', rather than the setup standard of around '30' or so - not for the sake of making room for the shot (there is plenty of room as original shells are roll crimped) but to stop the fine Win296 powder leaking out past the lower pressured wads of some shells;

2.  Although original shells are roll crimped, the plastic SAGA shells accept 6-point crimping - I found that the crimp starter needs to be set a little lower for a deeper start than for Winchester HS crimped hulls, but the SAGA shells do seem to accept the star-crimp OK - some adjustment needs to be made to the depth of final crimp to achieve a good result.

3.  I've reloaded some SAGA shells (2.5 inch) at least 5 times with no sign of excessive wear and tear to hulls

4.  All SAGA shells full-cased resized;  after second firing, some shells seemed to stretch ever so slightly - these were thrown out as a precaution.

5.  Whilst I don't have pressure or velocity testing equipment, this load seems safe and perhaps a little under-powered, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. (No sign of over-pressure with primer flattening, primer socket stretching or blow-outs observed with this 'recipe')
I have ordered some Winchester WAA410HS wads - will report back on their performance when I've reloaded some of the SAGA shells.


15 Sep 2005

I noticed the posting of Peter Whellum about loading the Winchester HS hulls and the problems he was having and had been communicating with him. I had also been shooting those new shells and reloading with my old components. In the 2-1/2" hull I was using a CCI or Win 209 primer with 13.3 grains of Hodgdon Lil Gun Powder and either Winchester AA wads (old style) or Claybuster clones with 1/2 oz of shot.
The shells loaded fine and most of the time fired fine. There was the occasional blooper, underpowered load; think it was gas blow by because of the smaller diameter at the wad base. Then tried the 3" HS hull with CCI or Win 209 primers,12.2 grains of Lil Gun, Win AA (old style) or Claybuster wads and .71 oz of shot. I couldn't get the full 3/4 oz and crimp the hull. All shots were bloopers.  
Went back to drawing board and changed only the wad in loading 2-1/2" and 3" HS hulls, tried both Remington wads and Federal wads. No problems loading or shooting either. Both wads are larger diameter at the base of the wad than old AA wad, I believe similiar in size to the HS wad.
I then went back to check my loadings against what Hodgdons had published. My loads for the 2-1/2" HS hulls were right on spec. There was no published info for the 3" HS hull, the load I was using was for the Super X compression formed hull. Looking at the fired HS hulls showed no signs of high pressure. A quick call to Hodgdon got a tech rep who verified there is no published data for the 3" HS hull yet. I told him the exact load I was using. He felt it was safe; even though I was using a bit more shot than 11/16 oz. and at the heavy end of powder charge for the Super X hull, the HS hulls use still a bit more powder.
Jack Kuzepski

3 April 2005
Recently, I noted your site and wanted to relate how much I have enjoyed it. I own & operate,
  "Rays' Gunstock Service"
located here in the State of Georgia, United States. If anyone would like to exchange E-mails, please feel free to do so. We work on quite a few 410s and for sure they are my favorite "gauge".
  also ..
To anyone who owns & shoots the later and re-introduced Remington 870 LW-small bore, how do you like it?
I have heard it weighs under 6 pounds, has a 25 inch barrel and is of pretty good quality.
We have seen hardly any at all for here in the U.S.A. most opt for the 28 gauge.


Glad U like the Site, All the best,
20 March 2005
Subsonic Shells.
I shoot a single barrel moderated 410 for close range vermin control, I have had a batch of eley fourlongs which are subsonic{these are in a box with rabbits on and are fairly old}this load is hardhitting and has NO MUZZLE report. I have not been able to find a cartridge that can match this load.
Every other brand I use seem to be supersonic and very noisy!! is there a load available or has any one have any data for homeloads.
I like 11gm loads of 7s 2/12 inch, 1050fps would be just perfect,
can any one help adam.
14 Feb 2005
I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me with the id of this gun. I haven't had it in my hands but the owners says its an
O/U Spanish made gun. He also says it's a hammer gun. I persoanly have never seen a double trigger, hammer, O/U. The only hammer O/U I've seen are the .22lr/.410 combos. I'm not quite sure how that would work?  Two seperate hammers that are very close togther?  Here's a link to the picture---->  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/62956/DSC00068.jpg
17 Feb 2005

I have two questions about the Enfield rifles converted at the Ishapore arsenal to .410 muskets:
1) Is it possible to drill out the muzzle and install a sweat-in full choke? (supplier of appropriate choke?) 
2) I know some of the chambers of these muskets have been bored out to 2.5 inches - could they be further bored out to a 3" chamber?


04 Feb 2005

I recently inherited a .410 shotgun which belonged to my Grandfather. I know nothing about this gun and was hoping that someone could provide me with some information (make, age, probable use etc.).

The gun has a hammer action and a single, 22 and a half inch barrel.  There is no maker's mark as far as I can make out but there is some information on the side and bottom of the barrel (see attached photos).  Can anyone help?
Thanks in advance,

04 Jan 2005

The item on shooting grasshoppers (Rons Alternative 410 Shotgun Shells, See light loads) with specially prepared .410 loads reminds me of one of my earlier pursuits, dragonflies. However, I did most of it with a .22 and “rat shot.”

In 1967, I was stationed at Clark AB in the Philippines. The base exchange (BX) had a nice sporting goods section where I managed to buy a gun I had long coveted, a Marlin Model 39A, the very nice old Marlin lever action .22 which by 1967 had Micro-Groove rifling, a design using sixteen (16) very shallow grooves. In the fullness of time, the rifle would prove to be extremely accurate, but Clark’s rifle range, like practically all USAF rifle and pistol ranges at the time, was not used, and there was no place to shoot rifles.

However, Clark AB had a nice Skeet and trap range which was open many afternoons and all days on Saturday and Sunday. The Skeet range also housed the Clark AB Rod & Gun Club had a stock of the old Winchester .22 long rifle shot cartridges which were commonly called “rat shot.” These shells were the old style with crimped closure and held about 25 grains of #12 shot. These would work very well in the Marlin, and could dispatch small rodents at 10 feet or so, but would never do for any sort of Skeet shooting, they simply hadn’t the powder and shot to do the job.

However, that was all I could shoot in my Marlin, and I occasionally amused myself by tossing empty shotgun shells into the air and shooting at them. One afternoon as I was doing this, the sky swarmed with dragonflies of some sort. Just like Ron and his grasshoppers, I had a revelation – dragonflies would be a perfect aerial target for the tiny .22 shot cartridges. The old Marlin was effective on dragonflies at no more than five yards and I quickly discovered they made quite sporty targets. Thereafter I spent many afternoons stalking the elusive dragonfly.

I said I did most of my dragon(fly) slaying with the .22, but in later years I often shot my little .410s on other ranges and with other shooters who got a chuckle out of my penchant for occasionally shooting one foolish enough to fly across a Skeet range.

Unfortunately, not everyone was amused by my harmless pastime. I discovered about a tenth of a second too late that a young lady who was shooting on my squad adored dragonflies and showed by her sudden loud intake of breath that she was quite upset by it.
Marshall Williams

04 Jan 2005

I live in France where .410 guns are virtually unknown. I've just purchased a folding, Belgian made sidelever 410 from an English gundealer via guntrader.co.uk. The gun is in beautiful condition but it is chambered for very short cartridges. Has anyone had any experience with enlarging the chamber to accomodate 3" magnum cartridges ? Any advice would be appreciated.

7 Dec 2004

Dear Sir, I am looking for a mint condition Webley and Scott 410 bolt action single barrel. I have up to £200 to spend.
Yours faithfully Mr M White.

6 Dec 2004

I am wanting to buy a savage four tenner tubes for shooting .410 shells from a 12 ga shotgun.
please email me if you have one/two that you would be willing to part with.

26 Oct 2004

I have recently bought a double barrel 410 with 3" chambers. It has no serial number and the only marking on the gun is on the left side of the receiver where it says, "SPORTSMAN'S CLEVELAND." I live in Alaska but bought the gun from Gunbroker.com and I was told it had been owned by an old farmer in Pennssylvania. Can anyone tell me anything about this gun? Any information would be appreciated. Thank you very much,

The Sportsman brand name was used by the F. A. Crescent Co of Norwich, CT, (or one of its successors) on shotguns made for the W. Bingham Co. of Cleveland, Ohio.
Crescent Firearms history is a bit cloudy. I have previously looked it up in three references and got three different versions of it, so the following is my distillation of the information.

Crescent began business in 1888 and made single and double barrel shotguns in Norwich, CT until 1893. Crescent then merged with N. R. Davis and Sons but soon the new company was absorbed by another company, H. D. Folsum. Folsum made shotguns under the brand name American Gun Company of NY, but also made guns for other brand names. In about 1930, the J. Stevens Gun Company acquired the Crescent business and soon merged it with another called the Davis Warner Arms Corp, successor to N. R. Davis & Sons. The resulting company was called Crescent-Davis. Stevens continued to sell guns marked with some variation of the Crescent name until 1941. The record is further muddied by the fact that Savage Arms Co. bought Stevens in about 1920 and thereafter often intermingled its products with their own.

Crescent and its successors’ manufactured a huge number of shotguns, but the actual manufacturers' names are not well known. A major reason is that Crescent and all of its successor companies followed a practice of making guns on contract with hardware stores and sporting goods retailers and marked guns with the retail outlet’s name. The 2001 edition of Standard Catalog of Firearms lists about 200 brand names found on various Crescent products. I cannot give you an exact date for your gun, but the first American made .410s date from around 1911. (See Bob Sears’ article.), and J. Stevens Gun Company acquired H. D. Folsum in about 1930. That should bracket the gun’s age.

The earliest Crescent small bores were chambered for brass .44 cases. The .44 shells are so similar to the 2 inch .410s that they may be used in .410 chambers, however, the 2 inch .410 should be a trifle too large for a .44 chamber. However, with slack tolerances, they may well work. Guns with 2 inch .410 chambers often were marked .44-.410 and were intended to use both shells interchangeably. Guns with original 2 inch chambers usually are pre-1922, and guns with 3 inch chambers date from after 1933. In general, 2 1/2 inch chambers are post 1922, but may be later than 1933. Please note that all dates are approximate as changes occurred gradually and in both the US and England.

Authorities take different views on the values of these guns, but in general the values do not run as high as other better known American doubles like Parker, L. C. Smith and Ithaca. Depending on condition and such factors as whether the gun has ejectors or plain extractors, the values run about $150-$450.00. One source lists a top value of $700 for 100% new condition with all the extras. Marshall Williams

16 July 2004

Hi, I'm looking for information regarding an old Beretta folding .410 shotgun.
It dates back to 1945 with the serial number B83719.
The gun belongs to a friend who bought it in the 50's when he was 10 yrs old and it's still in regular use for shooting rats. The ejector has broken off and become lost so we are trying to find info on how to come by a replacement, the gun has great sentimental value and any help will be greatly appreciated. None of the gunshops contacted know anything about this gun.

Your little Beretta single barreled gun is well covered in R. L. Wilson’s lavishly illustrated The World of Beretta, an International Legend.

Beretta called this neat little gun its “monocanna ripieghevole” which translates as "single barrel folding shotgun." Patented in 1922, it first appeared in a Beretta catalog in 1925 and remained in the catalog until 1992. At first offered in 16, 20, 24, and 28 gauges, it eventually appeared in 8 (!), 10, 12, and 32 gauges. The.410 bore was introduced in 1958, along with a short lived 9mm Flobert rimfire version with 20 inch barrel. Total production exceeded 500,000 guns.

Intended as a simple hunting model, throughout its production life, the little guns were offered in highly decorated and engraved versions often advertised as especially suitable for ladies.

I could find no mention of it in Wilson’s book, but I very distinctly recall a well executed “trap” version of this gun in the late 60s-early 70s. It had a 32 inch full choked barrel with vent rib, a Monte Carlo stock and automatic ejector. It may have been called the Mark I trap.

J. L. Galef Co. had been the US importer and distributor for Beretta during the 60s and distributed the gun under the name “Companion.” After Beretta set up its own US network, the single was omitted from Beretta’s line, but Galef continued to import and sell a nearly identical gun under the name “Companion.” This was the same name Galef had used for the Beretta single, but after the breakup, Galef did not mention Beretta's name in connection with its sales efforts for the new gun, and I do not know whether the nearly identical gun was a Beretta product.

I can find no source of parts. If you have not yet done so, you should contact Beretta. Since the gun was catalogued into the 90s, it is possible that parts are available. Absent that, a competent machinist or gunsmith should be able to make a satisfactory replacement, although the cost might be high. Marshall Williams

14 June 2004


I am trying to find a shot wad that will cover 3/4 oz shot. I am shooting clays reasonable well from the 12 yard line. But I need 12 more feet and my little wads for the 2 1/2 don't get it done. Also I am using Win. 296. Is there a better powder that might help me. Thanks for your time Bill Gakona, Ak

Picture left shows wads available in the UK that have shot protectors, neither are long enough to enclose a ¾oz. .410 shot column. Are there any wads that will?


Shot Protection Wads - Who needs 'em?
Marshall Williams.

H&R (Harrington and Richardson)
15 Jan 2004

When I was a kid my Dad's buddy had an H&R folding single-shot .410. I always thought it was a neat gun but have been unable to find one since. I would like to find this gun or another similar gun in either single or double barrel. I noticed on this site that Falco Arms makes a similar gun, but it looks like they are not sold in the USA. I am in Wisconsin, USA, about 60 miles east of Minneapolis, MN. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Please send to

The H&R folding shotgun was made from 1910 to 1942 in two frame sizes. The 1940 Stoeger’s Shooter’s Bible lists the Heavy Frame with 26 inch barrel in 12, 16, 20, 28, and .410 - 12mm [sic] and weights from 5 3/4 to 6 ½ pounds. The Light Frame model is listed as having a 22 inch barrel in 12 mm, 14 mm, and 28 gauge and weighing 4 ½ pounds. Both models had an exposed hammer and an automatic ejector and cost $12. Other H&R single barrel guns ranged in price from $9.75 to $12.20.
The listing of the small frame gun in 12mm (.410) and 14 mm (32 gauge) as well as 28 gauge suggests to me that this model was intended for export as the metric designations would have been unfathomable to most US customers and US ammunition manufacturers had dropped 32 gauge ammunition some 10-12 years earlier. You may want to search www.gunsamerica.com for folding shotguns as there are several others. Beretta made a very nice one which was imported into the US under the name "The Companion." Marshall Williams


14 May 2003

I have a H&R "Handygun", Serial# 36784. This gun has a 12" barrel, 410 Ga, and appears to have been made as a pistol. Can anyone give me information as to the value and history of this gun. Even where I could find info would be helpful.
Thanks.(See Notes on the Handy Gun)

19 Jan 2003

Looking for information resource for the following: U.S. manufactured, Harrington & Richardson, SS, .410 pistol: bbl c. 10 inches, oal c. 13 inches, shell size 2.5 inches

I would greatly appreciate any information on a Harrington & Richardson Topper Model 158 .410 with serial number AJ248116. I have no idea if this gun is worth anything, but I would like to know it's value and history if feasible. Thank you.

I have inherited a H&R 410-44(cal.) single barrel shotgun with no model number for referrence. I am interested in any info about this gun. Thanks

I've recently inherited a 410 single-shot shotgun with a 12mm choke made by Harrington & Richardson Arms Co., serial number 36982. Can you tell me anything about this weapon, such as how much it's worth or whether they still make shells for it? It's in very good condition.

I just recently ran across a H & R Handygun and was wondering what this was worth. Any information on it would be helpful. Thanks. (See Notes on the Handy Gun)

I recently inhereted a harrington & richardson arms co. 410 do they still make this gun? can i get parts ? and is it worth the shell i put in it. i mean how much would it be worth. thank for any info. scott in southern california.

Harrington and Richardson manufactured reliable utilitarian low cost firearms from 1874, until 1986 when they ceased production, the H&R trademark is utilized by a new company (H&R 1871, Inc.).
H&R (Harrington and Richardson), Gardner, MA. Now part of New England Firearms, try http://hr1871.com/

H&R Handy Gun - Notes by Marshall Williams


I have found this old 4-10 shotgun and was just wondering if you could give me a little history about it. I am not a hunter, never owned a fire arm, and know little or nothing about guns.
I can shoot one, but thats about all. This one has K-Mart stamped on the barrel, 410 gauge 3in. Full. Troy, Mich. I remember as a kid there was a bolt action 410 that was popular, but this one just breaks open for the shell to be put in, close it and you're ready. Single shot I guess. It was made in Brazil by Companha Brasilera De Cartuchcs. On the bottom it has "MOD 151". Who made this gun and what is it's value. If you can, how old is it. Thanks for the info.

CBC Brazil makes serviceable low cost shotguns. I remember seeing Brazilian imports in the late '60's. If there is no serial number I would say it is pre- 1968.
I think that when they were required- a gun shop or an email to BATF will tell you for sure.
The K-Mart 151 is the same as the Kresge 151 and can also be marked with an "FIE" model number.
Numrich lists the original manufacturer as Boito and original model as CBC. They, like many others (including me), are a little hazy as to corporate parents and offspring. As to value, I've never heard of any collector interest in these. Gunshops in my area sell anything that goes "bang" and doesn't maim or kill the shooter for $90- $100.
Good Luck, Bob

Hi, Can anyone advise me about removing the fore-end of a CBC single barrel .410 (3" Ej) Model # 151
Thanks in advance.

John, From the exploded diagram it appears the forend just pulls off. At the muzzle end there may be an indentation for a finger to help pull. If there is a visible latch obviously it should be moved/ pushed. If there is a visible screw head take it out, but it looks like the screw comes down from the top (the nut may or may not be visible). It may take some effort as the spring is the same for all gauges and must hold things in place during recoil. Replace by putting the butt end of the forend against the hinge and squeezing the forend to the barrel. You'll have to align the forend plunger against the little lump on the bottom of the barrel but the alignment should be fairly obvious. Take care, Bob

Bridge Co.

i own a single shot 410 with 12mm choke made by the Bridge co. and sold thru a hardware store in St. Louis about 1932. can you help with the value. the gun is in excellent condition.. thanks.

hello i have inherited a 410 single shot shotgun with 12 mm choke its made by the Bridge company it's name is the black prince the numbers on it are a688386 is there any thing you can tell me about it age etc thanx

Bridge Gun Company: Registered trade name of the Shapleigh Hardware Company, St. Louis, Missouri. History of Company at.. http://www.thckk.org/shapleigh-history.html

Eastern arms company

Was wondering about this 410 gauge. Eastern Arms Company is ingraved on the side of the stock.Other side of stock 21 is stamped within a circle.On the barrel is proof tested 410 gauge.Any help would be appreciated.Such as the year it was produced and where it was produced.thank you

I inherited a single shot .410 shotgun. The only makings are " Eastern Arms Company" and "1929 Model". Can anyone give me any information on this shotgun?

Eastern Arms Company: Trade name used by the Sears, Roebuck and Company of Chicago on both shotguns and inexpensive revolvers made by the Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle Works. For Ivor Johnson info see.. http://www2.arkansas.net/~sws1/ijfaq001.htm#chrono


I was passed on .410 "FOIC" side by side shotgun. It was made in Brazil and was imported by FIE to Miami Florida. Please let me know if anyone has any information regarding this shotgun. Thanks


FIE stands for Firearms Import Export company, and they operated out of Hialeah, Florida (part of Miami) from about 1980 until 1990 when they declared bankruptcy. SO your gun was probably made between those dates. Brazilian gun makers are very good and although they copy many of their designs from popular US models, they are generally well made and sell for a lot less than their U.S. made cousins. (Thanks to "fasn8ed" for this info.)

Does anyone know why a .410 is sometimes refered to as ' 36 gauge' as, by the usual definition of shotgun bore sizes (no of lead balls of a given diameter that can be made from a pound of lead, 1 pound occupies 2.438 in3, 0.410 ball occupies 0.03608in3, therefore aprox 68 balls to the pound) a .410 should be a 68 bore/gauge?


See the mythical 36 gauge for some thoughts.


I am looking for any info on a 'F.M.J.'.410 side by side folding stock shotgun. I aquired this gun and no very little about it. I do know these facts: looks inexpensive, the derringer style pistol grip says 'cobray' on it, the folding butt stock holds 3 shells, the box it came in has a Copperhill, Tenn. address on it. I would like to no more about the gun itself and possible it's worth. Any help will be greatley appreciated. Thank you.

I am a shotshell collector and I am looking for old paper .410 shotshells, especially from the firm of W.R.Pape of Newcastle upon Tyne and any other U.K. & Commonwealth gunmaker cartridges. Contact. Chris Stout.

Does any enthusiasts have old 410 cartridges for sale (British Roll Turnover only)? I have most of the old Eley carts. in quantity, but I would like to buy/swap any gunsmith brands. Old boxes and adverts are also of interest to me.