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Slugs & Buckshot |
This message boar is now closed.
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The .410 for Self Defence by Marshall Williams |
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The June issue of Guns Magazine lists a buckshot load in an article
by C. Rodney James. I'm playing with Speer .38 HBWC's run through a swage die with a homemade punch to make a very deep hollow base. Some success- I'm on my third base punch and just bought another 23/64" drill bit ( they're cheap, available and they fit the die perfectly) to grind down. If I get the bugs worked out I'll send it to "info". For what its worth, I've been using standard loads of H110 (IMR4227
wasn't burning cleanly) intended for 1/2 oz of shot. They're likely
a little warm but SEEM safe in my gun. I can't recommend them because
I haven't had them pressure tested. |
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Dear 4-10's men, I am still looking for in all over the Internet and I can't find yet a reloading
company to produce a .410 slug mold (Lyman, Lee, RCBS, Saeco etc.). No! .395 balls are too tight Try .375 ball, loaded over 12 gr. of 2400, and enough card wads for wad column height.....roll crimp....and try...you are at your own risk for trying any unpublished load, or exceeding this level of powder....every gun can be different, but this one has worked in many styles of 410s that I own.....write me back D. Scott. Dear Sir or Madam, I would like to ask you where I can find a .410
slug casting tool. (There are some companies that have casting
tools for gauge 12 but none for .410). |
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Several years ago I bought two little flat five round boxes of 000 or "triple ought" .410 buckshot shells manufactured by Winchester. I have never seen these shells listed in Winchester’s catalog, although I may have missed it. The cases are typical red one-piece plastic Winchester AA-type, the head stamp is the typical "WW" on one side on the head and "410" on the opposite side. Each case is prominently marked around it periphery "Winchester" over "000 BUCK." The shells are roll crimped without an over-shot wad, so the foremost buckshot is exposed. I did not disassemble the shells to see what was inside. The boxes are plain white with black lettering and bear no big red "W" logo. The only mention of Winchester is on the back side at the bottom where it says, "Ammunition Manufactured by Winchester." The front carries the information that the shells "Will fire in any .410 GA. [sic] shotgun chambered for 2 ½ in. Or 3 in. 410 ga [sic] shotgun shells. It will also fire in pistols chambered for .45 Colt/.410 GA." These shells were intended to be used in modern copies of the Remington over and under derringer in caliber .45 Colt. One of my cohorts bought one of the big derringers and similar buckshot shells for self-defense and was quite proud of his armament. I have no derringer but I fired two of them from my Remington 870 Skeet gun with its 25 inch barrel over my chronograph. The chrono read out said 1272 feet per second for one shell and 1252 for the other at a range of 15 feet. The first pellet to cross the light sensor trips the eye, so the velocity is only for that pellet, not an average for all three. However, since the first pellet was pushed to prominence by the other two, I am sure they were not far behind. Assuming the 000 buck are .360 diameter and weigh 70 grains each, that first pellet had 247 ft lbs of energy, comparable to a .38 special revolver bullet. With two more close behind, the total energy at five yards is nearly 740 foot pounds. The two-shot 25 yard pattern showed five holes in about five inches and a sixth hole a couple of inches away. Thus, out of a long barrel, each shell would have about as much effect as three .38 special pistol bullets. I live in West Virginia where buckshot may not be used for deer hunting (.410 slugs may be used). Nevertheless, any deer which caught this load in its vitals should be venison. For the cannibals out there, any man who caught this load in his vitals also would be meat. Velocity from the 3 inch barrel of one of the big derringers would be substantially lower, but I have no information on what it might be. Marshall Williams |
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I don't know if this would be opening a can
of worms or not, given the present lamentable firearm situation
in the U.K., so I won't go into a great deal of detail... An 11/16ths oz. factory load pulled and weighed on a Dillon elctronic scale weighs 302.3 gr. A .395 roundball of pure lead is 92gr.(Say 90gr. for wheel weight alloy...) 3x90gr.+270 gr. combined weight for three .395 cast balls. A .22Short bullet weighs 29 gr., so the three .395's plus a .22Short bullet would weigh just shy of 11/16ths oz., so three .395's are well UNDER 11/16ths. oz. weight. A felt "wonder-wad" between the 1st and 2nd balls into the case may cushion the two most likely to be deformed a bit and cause "flyers". (The above are just thoughts on a subj. that intrigues me and a few others and I don't have press. results from H.P.White Labratory or anything like that, so you are on your own... And remember, "funny" things can happen between
the time you drop the hammer and your charge exits the barrel!) If any of you would like to make .395 dia. round lead "fishing sinkers" of wheel weights, I reccommend the LEE mold in this dia. If you cannot get LEE products in the UK, I will try to ship you one for "cost +". (My cost is aprox. $10 U.S.) Kind of a "hands across the water" thing, to make your "piscatorial pursuits" more versitile. E-mail me off page and we can figure out how to give it a try if you cannot get the right tool over there. Dave Orchard THINGS NOT TO TRY .. Amongst them is "waxing
a load" by pouring molten wax into your shot chage after opening
the crimp. .... About the buckshot.
If you mean opening the crimp and replacing the factory shot with
buckshot- NO. If you mean reloading fired hulls- maybe. I've seen
loads on the net and, if you like, I'll try to find them for you.
These would be loads developed by someone like you and me. No pressure
tests and no powder company sanction. You would be on your own as
far as safety. I haven't tried them. Take care, Bob |
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Anyone interested in the .410 as HOME PROTECTION WEAPON or LIGHT COMBAT SHOTGUN ? I've collecting many different shells in the USA , would be interested in hearing about your related shotgun and ammunition. HI GUYS , I'VE BEEN GETTING A FEW
E-MAIL IN REGARDS TO MY POSTING ".410 AS HOME PROTECTION WEAPON". .410 HOME PROTECTION
*SELLIER&BELLOT AND REXIO-
www.cheaperthandirt.com "GUN SAFETY IS NO ACCIDENT" See the article on the .410 for Self Defence by Marshall Williams. |
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June 2007 Update:- Check out MCB's Excellent 410 slug information here
June 2007. |
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I have been engaged in exporting firearms for many years, with most shipments to Japan. A few years ago I received a request to quote a single shot .410 slug gun to a customer in Japan. After some effort, I quoted a Thompson-Center Contender carbine with a rifled stainless steel (blued) barrel with rifle sights, drilled and tapped for a scope. The barrel length was dictated by legal minimum overall length at about 23 inches. No such barrel exists, so I proceeded to have one built. When it came time to rifle the barrel I asked the customer what slug he planned to use. The answer was that he did not know - what would I suggest? I suggested the usual factory loads, but the customer wanted something better and asked if I could find brass cartridge cases and slugs for reloading. I soon discovered that such things did not exist, so I set about designing my own. My design for a case was a semi-rimmed brass case with a large rifle primer (shotgun primers are rare in Japan). The outside shape was based upon a .410 chamber reamer from Clymer and the inside was cylindrical and sized to fit a normal .410 shot cup wad. I had both 3 inch and 2.5 inch cases made. For the slug I designed a round nosed, waisted slug with a hollow base to fit into a normal .410 shot cup wad and had a mold made to my drawings. My target was 1/2 ounce, but the result was about 240 grains when finally cast, depending upon the alloy. Using an old NEF single shot .410 shotgun with the choke cut off, I tested the concept using shot loads and shot a few slugs for effect. Using published .410 reloading recipes for a start, I found that over 1600 fps resulted in extensive damage to the shot cup. The slugs were unstable in the smoothbore, but I understand that performance in the rifled barrel is fine. A great deal more work could be done with this cartridge, but you can see that the 240 grain slug at 1600 fps is quite powerful for a .410. I also made some 28 gauge slug guns, and they are easier because
.54 caliber black powder sabot slugs are a readily available perfect
fit. The 28 gauge brass cartridge cases were made much like the
.410 cases and seem to work well. I never actually tested the 28
gauge slug loads, but they promise to be a really powerful load. |
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I was wondering why the 410 cartridge is loaded with say 1/2 ounce
of pellets but if loaded with a slug the slug weight is only 1/5th
ounce? Is it because of the hollow point or are the wads/shot cups
so different. This responds to your inquiry on
the 4-10 site in which you ask why the common 1/5 oz, 87.5 grain,
.410 slug is so much lighter than the lightest common shot charge
which is 1/2 oz. or 218 grains. |
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I recently wrote to Lee (www.leeprecision.com) (they are famous for dies, reloading tools) I asked them if they would be able to make a .410 slug mould. The response was yes! Now, they are already producing some pistol bullets that are great shapes, look at their site. I think that their wadcutter design would be great! One would only need to order a die that was hollow based, and .375 diameter or so. They can do this for around $175.00 US funds. There moulds are really good, I own 8 of them, as I load for many things. I have, unfortunately, already ordered a swager for my slugs from CH DIES. It has been several months wait, but I await the dies, and they are about the same costs. Since most of my slugs from Liberty (see mention) have a harder alloy, a casting mould would open the possibilty of using many more alloys than a swager set-up could use.This would be a good source for outside US "4-tenners" to consider. Lee has been extraodinary in service to me. Doug
I wanted to comment on the 410 slugs available from Liberty
shooting supplies. These are top quality, perfect slugs.
I have ordered, and shot them.These people are very friendly, and
are eager to serve you. The slug is best loaded over cardwads, and
I have had the best luck with winchester AA, and remington hulls
(2 1/2"). There is no reason to try and load a 3" hull. The power
and accuracy in a 2 1/2" is good enough. The real trick out there
is to find a roll crimper for a .410....There are none that I can
find except the UK option. I have written to them on numerous times,
and have had no response. Perhaps they don't know that most of us
here in the US want to know cost in US dollars, and if it can be
FEDEX"d to us. I had a real nice friend that is a machinist make
me one. I am really amazed at how I can duplicate a factory round...I
also wanted to comment that the Liberty slug is a lot larger than
a factory slug (length and weight). This is nice for the factory
slug has always been somewhat whimpy. I am going to order some new
hulls from ballistic products to see what they do (roll crimp, accuracy)
when they have never been fired. The absolute best place for 410
info is certainly this Website! (Thanks.) | ||
Dear 4-10's men, I am still looking for in all over the Internet and I can't find
yet a reloading company to produce a .410 slug mold(Lyman, Lee,
RCBS, Saeco etc.). Dear Sir or Madam, I would like to ask you where I can find a .410
slug casting tool. (There are some companies that have casting
tools for gauge 12 but none for .410). I am trying to locate moulds or swaging equipment for the 410 rifle slug. Is there a source where I may purchase the slugs and reload myself. Thanks Tom Checkout Corbin Mfg. & Supply, Inc on our suppliers page for swages. We would be very grateful for information on moulds (molds) for .410 slugs, thanks |
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In "Complete Reloading Guide" by John E. and Robert J. Traister,
(published by Stoeger, 1996) there is a.410 slug load that uses
a 238 grain Lyman slug. (Possibly a missprint
see *) The data for the 238 grain .410 slug originated with Lyman, the gunsight and bullet mould company. It appears in my Lyman’s Reloading Handbook, 44th. edition, copyright 1967, however, I think the data was developed some years before, probably mid-50s, and merely reprinted in later handbooks. The slug was cast in Lyman’s .410 slug mould which has been obsolete since about 1968, if not before. Although Lyman's Handbook lists its mold numbers for all rifle and pistol designs for which they gave data, no mould number are listed for any of the shotgun slug molds. I used many Lyman molds for casting pistol bullets and was generally familiar with their catalog and services in the 60s, however, I do not recall that Lyman used mold numbers for shotgun slug moulds. At one time, Lyman made both slug moulds and dies to swage the rifling grooves on them in 12, 16, 20 gauges and .410 bore. However, tests conducted by the staff of The American Rifleman magazine showed that the swaging rifling grooves on the soft lead hollo base slugs did little to improve accuracy and the dies were discontinued. The .410 slug mould was never popular
and I imagine that it would be extremely difficult to find a used
one. Marshall Williams, ALOOF I looked again at the question
related to the heavy .410 slug load, and a couple of bits of trivia
popped into my mind. Although the size 57 and 69 primers had disappeared from other cases by about 1970, I believe the last shells to use the smaller size were Remington 10 gauge magnum shells made with SP cases into the early 1980s and using a combination of fiber base wad covered with a black plastic disk. R-P 10 gauge magnums with a one-piece yellow base wad use the standard size primer. It is possible to resize the 57 primer pocket to take a 209 primer by first forcing a fired 209 primer into it, depriming the fired primer and then loading a standard size primer. The 69 primer is a specialty version of the 57. The significant difference between the two sizes was the length of the battery cup. The 69 used a battery cup that was noticeably shorter than the battery cup used on the 57. The 69 primer was used is applications where one needed to make the most of the space available inside the shell. The shorter version allowed about 2 grains weight of additional powder. The most common use of the 69 was in the .410 and 28 as they had the least space, but it also could be found in the 12 gauge magnum and 10 gauge magnum shells in the heaviest loads. Occasionally Remington primer may be seen with an asterisk after the number, 57* or 97*. I no longer recall the significance of the star. One final thing about the heavy .410 slug load, a 238 grain slug at 1565 fps would develop 1294 ft. lbs of energy at the muzzle. For ALOOF, |
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I note from www.4-10.co.uk that you offer a .410 slug and I am hoping you can clear up a mystery for me. Some info on the 4-10 website says your mold is a Lyman and your website says that your slug weighs 140 grains cast of pure lead and is .372 in diameter. The mystery concerns Lyman data for their .410 slug. Starting
in the mid-60s, I cast many thousands of bullets from a variety
of Lyman moulds, and I well remember the larger 12 gauge and 20
gauge moulds, but I have never seen a Lyman mould for a .410 slug.
I know they exist because my old Lyman Reloading Handbook, copyright
1967, contains data for reloading them. If yours is the original mould and your slugs weigh just 140 grains cast of pure lead, then almost certainly 238 was a typo about fifty years ago which, through reprinting in many subsequent manuals without any fact checking, has become part of shooting folklore. One other matter, Although my old Lyman Handbook contains mould numbers for all rifle and handgun bullets, it shows no numbers for shotgun slug moulds, only gauge. So I have two questions: Marshall Williams, You may very well have found one of the few
errors in the catalogs over the years. this is one that customers
bring up from time to time. Just for comparison purposes, in that
weight range of 238grs.. 45 maxi ball is 245gr.; .530" RB is 210gr.
Liberty Shooting supplies .410 slugs page |
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| Does anyone have a clue what kind
of trajectory you can get from a 410 slug from 3" shell? Dave Chandler
in North Carolina
Ballistic products Inc. ( www.ballisticproducts.com)
sells a "light game slug". It uses a .36 cal (.375") muzzle loading
pistol ball carried in a wad that looks like the Gualandi ( www.gualandi.it/eng/pallae.htm)
wad and slug. Dynamit Nobel ( www.dnrws.com)
makes a 2 7/8" (73mm) slug. |
