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5 Nov 2004

my father has a 410 single, hammer action foldup shotgun.he knows very little about it but he did use it as a kid in the fifty's. there appear to be no markings or serial no's.he has been told it is probably belgian,is it possible to have an imported gun with no markings.i would greatly appreciate any thoughts anyone may have.thanks,great site by the way!

3 Nov 2004

Can anybody tell about a 410 norica bolt action three shot gun. I have been told it is Spanish, and is a fairly good gun? but I cannot find any information about it.
I would also like to hear from other, 410 fans, who reloaded shells and can share any pitfalls do's and don'ts.

22 Oct 2004
Wanted, original old fashioned coach gun .410 pistol, 12” overall with hammers
11 July 2004

I recently aquired an old game getter. I am looking for a schematic or cut-away drawing of this gun. It is badly in need of work. I see some one else who just aquired one cannot find a serial number on it. The ser.# on mine is on the top edge of the frame. You have to break open the action to see it. It is very faint on my gun.

29 June 2004

Black powder and the .410 Does anyone have practical experience, or know of recommended blackpowder loads for the .410 shotgun? W.W. Greener in "Modern Shotguns" (1891) says the standard load for a 2" .410 cartridge was 3/4 dram (20.5 grains) of powder behind 3/8 oz shot.
The Shooters Bible - Black powder Guide (1969) Appendix IV has
.410ga 1.5 Drams FFg powder (41 grains) and 3/8 oz shot for a "medium load" and (on page 46)
.410ga 1.5 Drams FFg powder and 5/8 oz. shot for a "heavy load".
Apart from having to scrub the barrels out, are these workable/effective loads?


24 June 2004

Wanted - Broken, rusted, neglected guns or parts thereof in need of restoration. I am an amateur gunsmith working hard to set up a new business offering cost effective refinishing services but I need to build a portfolio of past work. I have both S1 & S2 certificates and can collect if necessary if you can help me please get in touch

23 June 2004

Last season I aquired a s/s 410 zabala double trigger game gun which handled as sweet as a nut. however not being overly impressed with bought ammo I purchased a 600jr press.
With fiocchi primers - 15 grains of hogden lil gun - 2 1/2 inch remington cases - 5/8oz of no 7 shot and remington sp 410 wads. If I shake the cases around with the shot in, I can just about get the roll crimp over.
Wow!! on one phesant day i shot a left and right phesant, a left and right hare (at 30 yds) and crossing phesant and a further 8 partridges most of which had travelled over guns that had shot at them with there 12 bores.
Eat your heart out boys does that little gun wind em up I was well impressed. I missed about 4 or 5 partridge but i would not say that i would have hit them with my larger bore guns.
Its only fair to say that I have shot clays for england for 6 yrs so im no country boy with a shot gun having said that I was rather surprised with the results myself i have been to the same shoot with my little baby on three further occasions with similar results. AShootist

21 May 2004

hi, thought i had better share my new addiction (410s), have a scout m6 by springfield & use 400 nitro brass 3" shells for reloading . get them from the ammo dump (web site www.theammodump.com) not cheap but exchange rate good for uk. just bought some .375 lead round balls (muzzel load) by hornady. looking forward to stacking them 3 with cut down wads for spacing . might be usefull for SMALL roos, goats,pigs .dog &fox regards john : (west australia)

p.s. have been having problems with misfires using rifle primers in the 400 nitro brass . searched the web & found a black powder site . he recomended drilling the primer hole with a 15/64ths drill bit & fitting 209 primers no more troubles...ps had to counteer sink with a larger bit to recess primer cup lip also needed a tiny rub with a round file.. regards john

6 May 2004

I have been told that the Winchester 9410 Traditional with Invector chokes is only available in UK as FAC 9 shot magazine. This seems strange as others have the 3 shot plug but I cannot find who imports them to clarify the situation. Anyone know who imports and E -Mail address? Michael Liddell

30 Mar 2004

Hi When I was younger in 60s-70s I used to collect guns and shoot also, I had 2X 410s made from the old 303 rifle Mk1 and the P4, I liked the 410 it was great for poaching I had the folding one that fitted inside parka pocket, I also had one which i found in an old farm auction it wasnt till got it home found out it was made by Purdey and must have been used in early 1900s, it was single barrel, and inlaid in gold with a damascus barrel,it was a smashing wee gun,and well worth the 4 i paid at the auction, yes those were the days.
My first shotgun was a cooey a canadian single 410, it was bought out our local fishing sports shop for 13, that was in 70s, from then on I was hooked and bought one whenever I saw one , no one seemed to want a 410 when they could all get 12 bores, the 9mm garden gun was another that some people would mistaken for a 410 and also was used with a solid shell although wasnt supposed to do but my pal and I always experimented, as for firing pins not first time just used a 1" nail cut down, and used as firing pin,anyone wants to chat on guns contact me for chats,

10 Mar 2004

I would like to get some information on a gun I own. It is a JC Higgens 4-10 bolt action tube fed.
Any information you can send me would be great.

J. C. Higgins was a trademark used on Sears & Roebucks’ house-brand guns and sporting goods, including bicycles, fishing rods, roller skates, and gun cleaning kits from 1946 until 1962. However, Sears never manufactured any of the products bearing the J. C. Higgins name. Instead, it contracted with other manufacturers to produce a specially marked model for them, often, but not always, a cheaper version. The tube feed on a bolt action .410 shotgun identifies it gun as a Stevens Model 59, sometimes called the Model 39, made from 1934 to 1973. Value is only nominal. Marshall Williams

02 Mar 2004

Am looking for info on Noble Model 80 auto 410 shotgun. I have one, given to me in a " taken apart " condition, seem like there are parts missing. Would you by chance know of a source that may have drawings on this gun, would like to put this one back together. Its in good condition otherwise. thanks,

The Noble Model 80 was manufactured in 1965-67 by the Noble Mfg. Co. The Noble Mfg. Co., located in Haydenville, MA, was in business from 1950 to 1970 and manufactured a line of inexpensive shotguns and .22 rifles. Their .410 automatic also was sold by Harrington & Richardson as its Model 403 (one source says 401) auto. My information says that H&R made it only during 1964. I have no information about what sort of connection the two companies had. Both models are pictured in the 4-10 nostalgia pages. Gun Parts Corporation, West Hurley, NY 12491, www.gunpartscorp.com, catalogs some parts for the Noble Model 80, but has no diagram showing their relationship. Their huge catalog costs $12.95 in the US and is worth every penny as an authoritative education in old guns Marshall Williams.

27 feb 2004

I have a Webley and Scott .410 bolt action and would like to know its age. Does anyone know of a website or a book that can date my shotgun?

10 feb 2004

WANTED- Parts for LEINAD, I need the pin that holds the trigger asm. and the barrel together. And the lock ring to keep it in place. Thanks,

16 Jan 2004

WANTED- A choke tap in .410 for Browning Invector chokes. I have three .410s I would like to add choke tubes if I can find a tap for my gunsmith. Thanks, Jason

15 Dec 2003

I am looking for some info on an EL CHIMBO 410 shotgun, It is an over/under double hammer double trigger, it has a walnut hand carved checked stock made in spain any info would be appreciated. I am located in Canada.
D. Davey

13 Dec 2003

I have been reading this site for a few weeks now. I just purchased my first .410 about three weeks ago, an H&R Pardner. I like single shot guns, I already have a Savage model 220A in a twenty, and an Ithaca 66 in 12 gauge. From what I have read on other forums, it seems that not too many people like the .410. A lot of them really trash them, one going so far as to say it should be outlawed.
I don't hunt anymore, I haven't for years, but from what I have read and experienced in the past, a .410 should take just about any game the larger ones will, if you keep within range. Most of the time we didn't hunt with dogs, and more often than not quail, pheasant and grouse would flush close enough for a .410. They often flushed too close for a shot until they had moved further away. I personally feel that most birds can be taken with them, even though geese would have to be coming in over decoys.
I also feel that most people feel that bigger has to be better, but I think that the trend to a 12 loaded with two ounces of shot tends to make people take shots beyond their range. Obviously a heavily loaded shell from a 12 or a 10 can use larger shot than a .410, and much more of it, so the pattern of a heavilly loaded 12 with BB shot is going to be better than 11/16 oz. of fours in a .410.
I really don't believe that a .410 will put out a four foot shotstring, as I have read. I understand the longer, thinner shotstring, But I can't believe that one pellet is following another in a string all the way to point of impact. I also believe that a .410 slug is probably good on deer to about forty, or maybe fifty yards.
I bought a couple of boxes of Rottweil Brenneke to try through my new full choke gun. I wouldn't want to try a bear with a .410, but I am sure that it has been done before.I also think that five 00 buck coming from a .410 would have to do some damage, at close range, but I would never think to try it on something like a bear, unless there was no other choice.
I will say that when I hunted, it was mostly with my 20 gauge. I used to enjoy pass shooting for ducks, and I would use whatever load of number four shot that I had, including the old 7/8 ounce field loads. It worked fine to about forty yards.
I will close now, since this is such a long post. If anyone is interested in custom handloaded ammo, try www.starsandstripesammo.com. They offer just about any loading that you may want, in just about any gauge, length, or caliber. They will ship overseas to places that it can be done.I found them messing around on the net.
N. Taylor

10 Dec 2003

I am urgently trying to source a 'Browning Lite Elite Game in .410 with 30" barrels' I do not wish to pay the earth, and wonder if anyone would know of a reasonable dealer to supply said shotgun???
Ian Burrell

25 Nov 2003


23 Nov 2003

I have recently aquired a games getter hand gun and i would like to restore it. any possible leads. its barrel is 18 - 20 inches long. very old gun. neat piece

11 Nov 2003

I was wondering if anyone can provide any historical information on a .410 spanish shotgun and any information on parts. It is a side by side double barrel, double hammer with a lever on the right side of the action to open the hinge and a button on the left that enables it to fold up. "Marco Registrada EL FAISAN" is stamped on the top of both barrels at the breach in a circular patteren with a picture of a peasant on a branch in the center. Made in Spain and El Faisan - Elgoibor (Espana) is stamped on the left and right barrel respectifly. The gun is smallish and slender compared to a 12 gauage with the barrels measuring about 28 inches long. The gun weighs about 3 pounds and has a total lenght of 43 and one half inches.

24 Oct 2003

Iwas wondering if you could tell me where to get the barnaul ammo 410 bore. I live in the county durham area.
thankyou tom

22 Oct 2003

I live in Oklahoma, USA. I have acquired an O/U .410 bore shotgun. The only markings I can find on the barrel are the word "ARTHEMUS" and the marking "CAL 36". I have not been able to locate any proofs or stamps. Do you have any idea who manufactured this firearm & where it was manufactured?
I have a 410 or 36g shotgun stamped the same It is a rizzini by the firm B Rizzini in Italy, the only difference is mine is the model Aurum . mine is quarter and half choke 3" chambered Hope this helps G. Allison (UK)

14 Oct 2003

I got a 4-10 shotgun from my grandpa and it was taken apart. I need the schematics for it, its a Sears Roebuck mod. 21 4-10 GA 583.2087. I haven't been able to find anything about it if u could help it would be greatly appreciated.

Your Sears Model 21 is a High Standard Flite King pump action shotgun. Please note that there are two distinct models called Flite King and for a time, both were produced concurrently. To further confuse things, High Standard also applied the name Flite King to several pistols and a .22 automatic rifle.
Fortunately, we know that only the second High Standard designed pump appears in .410 bore (plus 20 and 28 gauges). This version features an aluminum receiver and twin action bars and was in production from about 1960 until 1973. High Standard originally introduced this model in about 1960 (and discontinued it in 1973), the name "Sears" dates the gun as being sold near the end of that period. From 1942 to 1962, Sears used the Name "J. C. Higgins" on its sporting goods, then for a rather short period, it used the name of baseball Hall of Famer Ted Williams," and finally settling on its own name, probably in about 1966.
The earlier pump shotgun has a steel frame and a single action bar, was introduced in 1952, was made only in 12, 16, and 20 gauges, and was called the J. C. Higgins Model 20 or later the High Standard Model 200. A 12 gauge version remained in production until about 1975. Marshall Williams

1 Oct 2003



22 Sept 2003

I am looking for a pair of what I think was called a Savage Four Tenner tube. They are a bore reduction tube which allows a 410 shell to be fired thru a 20 gauge shotgun. They are about 12" long with an O-ring at the fore end. Can you help me locate a pair. Thank you.
Thank you very much for your assistance.
I received offers from two persons and purchased a pair of the four-tenner tubes from one of them.
Again, thank you.

16 Sept 2003

Can anyone provide any information an a 14Bore (!) Westley Richard's S/S Hammer gun it has an unusual safety catch which is located underneath the stock to the rear of the trigger guard.

3 Sept 2003

I would apperacate any information on my Ithaca lever action single shot mod. 66. The only number I can find on the gun is 660233505. It may be the serial number. It has a 26 in. full choke bbl. and is in great condition. Thank you very much --Ralph
Ithaca made it's rather neat little Model 66 single shot made in 12 and 20 gauges, and 410 bore from 1963-1978. Its most distinctive feature is its straight grip and opening lever, an under lever which has a finger loop like the lever on a Winchester rifle. On special-order, it could be purchased with a vent rib and there was a 20 gauge "slug gun" for deer hunting which had a 22" barrel, recoil pad and rifle sights. It is not especially valuable, being priced more as a "user" than as a "collectible," but apparently the .410 version is uncommon as Fjested' Blue Book of Gun Values adds a 33% premium for it. Ithaca made a Youth Model 66 and a "Long Tom" Model 66 in 12 gauge with 36 inch barrel. M.Williams.

11 July 2003


http://www.saddleryandgunroom.co.uk/hushpowe.htm is worth a look at.

06 July 2003


Numrich has sold out (http://www.e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU=150140&MC=), any help appreciated.


29 June 2003

Hi, Hope someone can help me out with some info.
Are the Winchester 9410 & Marlin 410 available on SGC or are they Sec.1 FAC?
I've read that York guns are selling the Winchester, but is anyone in the UK selling the Marlin?
Thanks! Sean

Update - Just bought a very nice new Winchester 9410 on SGC from Wiltshire Rod & Gun, 135 Victoria Road, SWINDON, SN1 3BU: 01793-497455 for 410 inc vat. Heard the Marlin should be out some time in the autumn. Sean
Many Thanks, (Editor).

2 May 2002

I'm looking for information as to where I can purchase the above guns in the u.k.Any help would be appreciated. I'm very interested in any old lever action 410 shot guns. So if any body out there has this type of gun and is willing to sell please contact me with details and price.
(2 May 2002) Just to let you know that York Guns have the above gun (Winchester 9410) in stock 600 inc vat.
I have just purchased one from G.T.Shooting for 475 inc vat. big difference in price.
TEL: YORK GUNS Tel 01904 487180 Fax 01904 487185
TEL: G.T. SHOOTING 020 8660 6843
Regards, Joe.
Many thanks Joe.

See also Win9410 down the page.

28 June 2003

On a recent trip to UK, I purchased several 410 shotguns that were headed for the scrap yard due to short barrels (under 23 inches and various other problems. The problem I have is that most of them are missing the firing pin, the screw that holds it in and any related springs. Does anyone know of a source of firing pins for these guns, some of the makes are Army & Navy, Harrods Dept. Store and the rest appear to be Belgian Guild guns. I could make the pins if I had any idea of what they looked like, anyone have old drawings or catalogs with parts pictued. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you, John

24 June 2003

Hello, I was given my greatgrandfather's 1888 Bonehill shotgun, and I restored it (it had a broken stock - it was a fine example of English walnut so I repaired and rechecked), tooled a duplicate firing pin (it is a double rebounding side hammer style), and rewelded the damascus barrel. I returned it to my father after finishing the job. As he became ill, the original canvas case was lost and the trigger guard. This is a very important heirloom and I would dearly love to replace the missing trigger guard and possibly obtain another canvas case. I intend to restore the weapon and mount it in a matching walnut case, intact but not to be shot again as my grandfather shot modern load from the weapon.

I hope that you can provide advice or guidance on obtaining these items. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my search.
Sincerely, Leslie Smith

24 May 2003

Hi all
I was wondering if anyone has info/manuals/anything on a CBC Model 651 single shot Shotgun. I inherited one from my father, its a sawn off model thats the same length from front to back as my fingertips to my elbow, its got a wooden pistol grip. I cant find any info or even such a model on cbc.com.br The gun was purchased by my father from a friend in the South African police force, I've been told that these single shot sawn offs where used for riot control with rubber bullets. Also for anyone who knows about this gun or this make, is CBC any good?, or are they cheap junk? I'm also wondering if the gun was produced as a shortened sawn off model or if the model 651 is a full length shotgun that someone had altered before my dad made the purchase. Any info whatsoever would be greatly appreciated many thanx Sheldon

23 May 2003

Does anyone out there have a copy of the manual for this shot gun? Any help you can provide would be appreciated.
'Gauch I.G.A. Made in Brazil 410 GA, 3" Chamber Imported by Stoeger, Ind., N.J. from I.G.A. Brazil. '

21 May 2003

Wanted 9mm (flobert) Bernadelli semi automatic garden gun either 5 shot or 3 shot

19 May 2003

I wonder if anyone can help. I am looking to replace the plastic front sight and ramp on the Winchester 9410 with a steel sight and ramp. Does anyone know if the 94 rifle screw on ramp and sight fit the shotgun? If so where could I get one in the UK? Thanks
Hi The Winchester 9410 is to all intents and purposes the same as the model 94 rifle all the bits fit right on (including the scope mounts if you want to shoot slugs) However just to be sure call a mainline winchester dealer who will be able to check (most will have stock now of 9410's and 9422's or 94's)
Look the same on my two Hope this helps Rich

14 May 2003


Precision Reloading (800-223-0900) sometimes has 3" hulls. The last two times I've called they've been in stock (no I didn't buy all of them... I did buy all but a hundred of the 2 1/2" Rems though). I don't think most .410 hulls make it to the web site. The first time I ordered, they weren't even counted when I bought them...all. They say they very occasionally get 3" Winchesters. Their hulls have always been in good shape and shipped fast. Nice people. You might get a few with a very slightly raised circle (3/16" diam) in the plastic about an inch from the rim. Best anyone I know can figure, its a mark from a conformal transducer in a pressure gun. They load just fine and last as long.
Now the bad news- Remington 3" .410's aren't 3" anymore. They're 2 7/8"!!! The base wad looks the same to me. For some of my hunting loads (from Lyman's 4 th) I've been trimming the wad petals to get the shot to fit real 3" hulls for years. Trimming a bit more might work. The rest of the bad news is ten cents a piece up to 499 pcs, 9.6 cents for 500 up to 999, and 9 cents each for a thousand and up. Web site is www.precisionreloading.com .
I know you wanted once fired but depending on your luck you may want to consider new hulls. Cheddite 3" are available on and off- Grafs had them last I looked. Ballistic Products' "Multi-Hull" may be available- who knows, they may even have the promised data (don't hold your breath). Also when it is available BPI data tends to be anemic. The "multi-hull" appears to be made by Martigoni in Italy. Its owned by Nobelsport which is owned by SNPE. SNPE is French owned which might be pro or con, depending on your politics. If the hulls are the same as Nobelsport, you wouldn't be missing anything. Most imported hulls seem to have a larger interior diameters than what we're used to. In the past I've noticed powder migration with Cheddite 20 ga hulls and US wads.
grafs- www.grafs.com
BPI- www.ballisticproducts.com
Sorry I can't be of more help, but I don't think there IS a continuous source for once fired 3" hulls. 2 1/2" STS do seem to be more and more available though.
Take care, Bob.

14 May 2003

I'm trying to find information on a 4-10 gauge shotgun from Brazil. I don't know much about shotguns and was hoping someone could help me out.
I'm trying to find out about the firing pattern at 75 feet (25 m) with a Winchester super-x 3" cartridge. Also, how many pellets are in this particular cartridge and if this shotgun comes in both double and single barrels.

27 April 2003

I presently have a Stevens .410 3" chamber, single shot, no ser# or model #. I took it to my gunsmith for repair to the extractor pin.
While at the gunsmith I saw the IGA Stoeger SxS 410 Coach Gun. I am looking for a reliable 410. Is the IGA/Stoeger a reliable gun off the shelf, without doing any modifications ? Thanks for the info. Jon

27 April 2003

Just to let everyone know Marlin is now making there own .410 levergun.As to whether it will be effective or not is any ones guess but it is good that manufactures are starting to look at the .410 again.

10 Mar 2003

Some kids here in Missouri use .410s to kill turkeys and I have a 7 year old who wants to hunt. Wondering if you could shed any light on whether I should let him use this gun and if you could recommend the best loads for a turkey's head.

Mike, Its not the best idea in the world but if you pattern the gun and stay within the range where you're getting effective patterns it will work. That will likely be around 25 yards with a full choke. It gets expensive buying boxes of .410's to pattern.
I've got almost 3 rolls of rosin paper (3' x about 160' long) cut up in 3' pieces with .410 patterns on them. All I can say for sure is that the "best" shell in one gun can be the "worst" in another. An "average" reload usually beats the best factory load. Many full choke .410's throw extremely center dense patterns at 25 yards or so- center that pattern and your son has got a turkey.
If your slightly off, that dense circle is only around 12"-14"- sometimes less and you'll have a wounded bird.
I have a couple of Amish neighbors that have used .410's on turkey. Its rumored that one used buckshot for a body shot. "Rumored" because I don't know if its legal and come to think of it I forget exactly who that was...
The other guy used Federal 3" 6's. It worked; one shot.
Good Luck, Bob

10 Mar 2003

I am requesting the combined knowledge of all of us devoted .410s. I have a .410 pistol, called the " SERENA HANDI-GUN" (Italian,not american). It is a single shot, sliding breech. All steel construction, looks a lot like a 45 model 1911, with an 18.5" cylinder bore barrel. I have shot gamebirds with this gun, and most enjoyed that. It also has a wire stock.
I wanted to re-blue the barrel, and took it to a gunsmith that I have trade with before, and he broke several parts on it, upon dissasembly. This caused such a fuss, I got it back in pieces. I have searched all around for parts, and info. I have been somewhat sucessfull. I now have a handwritten letter from Mr. Serena, and the old sales brochure.
Apparently, the gun was made in the 50's, and was a "pot-gun". Also advertised was a mention that it was quite effective for shooting large fish. It was made in 410, and 28 guage. Many barrel lengths were offered, mine has a legal length for the US. I have been looking for someone that has one, or wants to sell me parts,or has experience in repairing this model.
No parts are available at Numerich, or any of the 68 suppliers/gunsmiths in the US that offer hard to find parts. I have been on a mission to find any thing for 5 years. This website has provided me with a mention of the pistol that was offered in the UK years ago, alas they are not able to help me either. So this is a request for help.....thanks to all that shoot 410's.

25 Jan 2003

This is the web site for MCA Sports/Ace Bullet Company in Alaska. They offer barrel inserts for shotguns. www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm I know it is illegal for y'all to have them but it is also and interesting site for those that want to increase to make drillings out of their double .410s or increase cartridge options for their m6 scouts.
Thanks, Charles S.

25 Jan 2003

I would appreciate any information that anyone may be able to give me to help identify an old family heirloom 410 single barrel shotgun that has been passed down from great grandfather.
The 410 is supposed to be Belgian and is definitely pre WW2. It folds up neatly and has a hammer activated firing mech. The only markings I can find are on the underside of the breech which are a triangle enclosing the letters ELF with an asterix under the letters and, a further set of marks arranged in a vertical fashion with a squiggle above a star above the letters JH. Anthony

24 Jan 2003

I wonder if anyone can help me with the following questions.
I hold a UK Shotgun Certificate/Licence.
I have held great affection for the 303 lee-Enfield rifle ever since my time as an Army Cadet.
I have heard of Lee-Enfield .303 rifles converted to .410 shotguns.
My question is three part:

1. Will a UK Shotgun certificate allow me to keep a .410 converted Lee-Enfield?
    If so how is the magazine capacity/removable magazine part of the shotgun regs handled?
2. Roughly what would one cost? i.e. for a reasonable conditioned MK4 conversion.
3. Does anyone know where/who deals in such a specialised gun?
Many thanks. Rob Harris

Response to your questions
1- Yes a SGC allows you to posses the above however the older versions with detachable box are now S1 as they are in excess of three shot, also mags must be pinned or welded in and certified by the proof house. So ensure you have said restriction certificate. Most were simply converted to single shot as the mags never ever worked properly with shotgun shells and these have no legal issues
2- 150 should get you a very good one, I have seen average guns for 75
3- No particular dealers spring to mind but the magazine "Gun Mart" always has a few every month
Regards Rich.

13 Jan 2003

I have recently purchased an MEC 600 Jr. reloading machine in .410 as well as a number of other bits and pieces and though you might be interested in a few figures which I have calculated on the costs of reloading your own cartridges.

Analysis in terms of component costs (excluding the "hull") shows that I reduce the cost of 2.5 " .410 cartridges from 15.6p each, new, to a cost of just over 8p each when reloaded. Also an intriguing fact came to light. On a shell by shell basis the saving is smallest in reloading the 2" cartridges and biggest in reloading the 3" shells, where the cost drops from 19.6p each to about 7.5p each. As this seems strange for the 3" shell the reason is a lower powder load, which is the most expensive component and only a slight increase in the shot load, which is relatively cheap. The cartridge prices are based on my local shop when buying in lots of 250 cartridges. There may well be cheaper suppliers about. The component cost breakdown for the 2 1/2 " shells (1/2 oz shot) I am reloading is as follows :

primer 1.6p
powder 3.0p
wad 1.4p
shot 1.56p
top card 0.75p
total 8.3p
This is obviously a significant cost reduction, but I have spent quite a lot on kit e.g. Machine, roll turnover head, MEC bushing to suit the recipe I use, drill stand and scales. I have calculated that at my present rate of shooting - about 150 cartridges a month on clay pigeon shooting - that the whole investment will have broken even in about 2 years. Of course there are two factors which are not included in the calculations, namely the initial cost of getting hold of the hulls to reload and the cost of my time. I am told that you can reload hulls safely only 3 or 4 times, so I will have to source some new or once-fired hulls, which will increase the costs. As to my time, I think I have found a new part of my hobby - so I don't include the costs of that.

A serious word on warning. We are STRONGLY advised to check weigh the powder load that a particular bushing delivers because of variations in powder density from batch to batch. I NOW KNOW WHY. With one particular powder the bushing is supposed to deliver 15.9 grains. But when I checked the amount actually delivered it was 16.6 grains. This is possibly within the tollerances for the 2 1/2" load, but I do not propose to start experimenting with a 3/4 grain increase in load when my faces is only 4 inches from the breech. Because of the relatively high breech pressures we are dealing with anyway, when you move to the 3" magnum cartridges with a smaller powder load and bigger shot load, the pressure becomes more sensitive to this level of error. The moral of the storey is to ALWAYS CHECK WEIGH THE POWDER. I am enjoying the new challenge of making my own cartridges and God willing I will survive long enough to see a significant reduction in the overall costs, but as various articles have said. SAFETY DOESNT HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT. A Happy, prosperous and SAFE New Year to all"

Yours sincerely Nic

10 Jan 2003

I have recently run across a Spanish SxS in fine condition stamped " Parkemy". I have done some research, but very little information is available. I know that the gun is manufactured by Amadeo Pinada. It seems well made and this particular model is highly engraved, but the finish work of the stock does not seem to compare with the quality of the machining. Do these guns have a reputation of being well made and how do they compare with other Spanish or English sporting guns?
Thanks you for any information that you may have available. John

1 Jan 2003

www.brownells.com (800)741-0015 (new parts, sights, and tools. !st rate outfit), and Numrich/Gun Parts Corp. Web: e-GunParts.com or toll free fax:877-GUNPART, have parts and tools. Be VERY specific with Numrich whether the parts you are interested in are new manuf. (sleazy), or original ones. (Been stung myself.), Dave

30 Dec 2002

In the USA, the Federal "gubmint" has decreed that 18" of barrel and 26" overall length is "legal".
This did away with the fine Marble's " Game-Getter" as it had various length short barrels and a folding stock. I have had hassles with idiot cops who did not know Federal law and thought that my cut-to-24" barrel SxS was illegal because it was "sawed-off and sawed-off shotguns are illegal." Don't fudge on the lengths unless you are willing to pay alot of money to do it legally thru a class 3 dealer. Dave

25 Nov 2002

It appears that most if not all, of the SxS, sidelever, hammers-thru-the-top-tang, (kind of a "boxlock" arrangement, with no sidelock plates), folding .410's were of Belgian manuf. (At least what little info. I've been able to come up with so far.)

Does anyone know if guns of this pattern were manuf. in Britain or elswhere other than Belgium?(I think there may have been a few from South America, but have no facts...)
Also want to know if any were made with 3" chambers. Thanks, Dave .32-20

The IGA/Stoeger SxS, available in .410, may be unavailable soon (24 Nov 2002) , so if you are "wavering" about whether to get one now or wait a bit, you might pony up the dough while you can still buy one. (Rumour is that Berretta has bought them out.(???))

A good friend, who previously turned me on to John Humphries' books Poachers' Tales & Tales Of The Old Poachers, and I have the same taste in scatter-pieces, such as some of the small-bored, handy little guns in the illustrations.

Anyway, between John Humphries and mo phral "egging me on", I tackled my IGA with a new mill file and have converted in into a " round action" by radiusing the corners of the very heavily built receiver, and the forend "iron". (Be careful here as the forend iron has hollows that could be cut into if you weren't watchful.)

(A true "round action" is a VERY high zoot gun indeed, and a "filed on" low-grade but sturdy and servicable gun like the IGA is as close as I'me going to be able to get.) I "poacher-stocked" the butt with the cut-out that has been used on shortened fowling pieces since flintlock days, so as to balance what was going to happen next.

I then cut the barrels to 18 1/4", (legal length in the U.S.), and squared up the muzzles. Since the balance was still just a hair fwd. of the hinge pin, I cut down the thick "beavertail" forend to the less bulky, lighter, older style and more visually pleasing "splinter forend" configuration. ( I will apply Micro-Bed underneath because the inlet is not good here and all the strain of keeping the forend from "working" sideways falls on the forend latch & lug.)

What remains to be done is to get the tooling for installing threaded choke tubes and install at least one in the left barrel, tho I plan to do both barrels.

I'me going to get a sling hanger for doubles to install on the under rib, dovetail the rib for one of my AO/(now XS) tritium center white bead front sights and once I have finished up the rough spots, apply black "spray n' bake" moly/poxy paint finish from Brownell's. (This is a very tough and weather-proof firearm finish.)

The little gun is MUCH handier, has shed a noticeable bit of weight, and balances perfectly now. Having the selection of replaceable chokes should make it "perf" for everything from shooting bunnies in thick brushy areas where they pop out right under your feet, to longer range of maybe up to 30 yds. for game like squirrells moving high up in thick foliaged trees. (I understand this is called "versatility".) I'll be able to "tailor" the choke to the load I want to use, as I shoot .395 and .375 roundballs and want to develop some coarse shot loads with BB and #2 shot, as well as the factory #4, #5, #6, and #7 1/2 shot sizes. I will be able to pick the optimum choke for whatever size shot I choose to put thru the gun, as well as the distance and game that I am poking around after on a particular day.

For me the only thing that would make it better would be to have external hammers and the ability to fold-up like a jack knife, (as some smaller bored guns still do.) Dave O.

Smith & Midgley - Could anyone offer any information regarding this shotgun? Anything with regard to its history etc? I believe it was made by Midland Gun Co. Thank you. Brenda de Lange

If you are considering one of these, keep in mind that they only feed 2 1/2" shells and are cyl. bore ONLY, (so far.) You should be able to have one adapted for screw-in choke tubes, but this is a weapon I cannot really figure out an appropriate "mission" for, myself. I'me biased in favor of single shots and doubles over repeater because I have never been able to connect with that third shot anyway. Also, maybe because of better balance, (or maybe just likeing doubles better than repeaters), I have had great difficulty even making a "double" with a repeater, but not so with SxS's. Regards

I bought one of the 9410's over a year ago, patterned it, and it sat in the safe for 6 months.

They're not only cylinder bore but a "bad" cylinder bore- don't know how else to describe it.
They're also about the worst .410's I've tried for shooting slugs. As I post as "Bunny Hunter" on quite a few message boards, mine has a mission. I guess you really have to love lever guns. Winchester, however, is really ripping people off.

I've had Colonial Arms choke tubes installed. They're great. I'm thinking about having a couple other barrels done. The only tooling I found was around $700 and no one in Ohio was doing the work. I finally sent it (actually my dealer did) to Mike Orlen in Mass. The whole thing w/ 3 tubes, S&H, and dealer mark up was about $130. His work is fast, precise, and relatively inexpensive. I certainly recommend him. After a lot of shooting, and a few modifications, I've found ( other than fiber optic front bead falls out after a thousand rounds or so) that I don't miss the 3" shell. I shoot just as well with a half ounce.

Just a thought- have you tried the reamer rental places for the choke tube tooling?

Take care, Bob

A couple of months after the 9410 started shipping, Winchester changed the fine print on their web site. If you read it carefully it now says that whatever the 9410 shoots should be considered "full choke" for the .410. But they are selling well, so who knows... From my patterning it shoots cyl or worse and spotty/ clumpy. With the tubes, its like a different gun. Since I shoot trap with it I replaced the factory shallow "V" with a Williams WGOS rear sight and used the aperture carrier from the WGRS without the aperture. The rear blade was blocking my view of the rising clay. This works pretty well. I've handled the "packer" model and really like it. Not enough to buy one though.
Take care, Bob

See also Win9410 up the page.

I recently inherited a Marbles game getter. It is a long barreled pistol with a folding stock. It has over-under barrels with the capacity to fire .22, .410 and .44. I can't seem to find much information on this thing. It has no serial numbers apparent on it anywhere. It's in excellent shape and the original shoulder holster is with it.
What I would like to find is the history, approximate date of manufacture and approximate value. Although I don't intend to sell it, I would like to know its' value for insurance purposes.

See the article by Marshall Williams, The Marbles Gamegetter

I also inherited a double barrel twelve gauge manufactured by the Geo. W Worthington co. of Cleveland, Ohio. I don't think this shotgun has much value, but any information, or links to information on either of these guns would be greatly appreciated.

George Worthington Co. Cleveland, Ohio seems to have been a large Hardware store (haven't found any dates but doesn't seem to be there now). Worthingtons guns were probabily made by Crescent Firearms, have a look at " Grampa's Shotgun: More Than Sentimental Value" ( http://www.briley.com/grampa.html)

I own a Worthington Special single 410 gauge shotgun which my Grandfather bought new in the 1920s.
I was hoping someone might be able to give me the value or the history of the gun and of the Worthington company.
Thanks, Steve ( Cincinnati, Ohio USA )

See comments on G. Worthington above.

I recently got an Italian falco d/b hammerless 3" 410,and would like to share with everyone my problems before they buy one .
when it arrived,(mail order) shock and horror! no rib & the breach is a lump of steel with the barrels sticking out of it. after a good drink and sleep I decided to keep it ,so the first job was to shorten the stock an inch or so! then for a shot. that went fine,until I tried to open the gun .the underlever, while being quite smooth had to be forced extremely hard to open. no good sending it back after cutting the stock.
Off to the shed,stripped it down and shortened the locking bolt-lug also polishing (finishing) most parts. back up the paddock and all is well but still very hard to open.after two more operations it was acceptable.
we fired about 75 rounds at clays, then a misfire on the second barrel on inspection the gun had opened enough for the firing pin to miss the primer. the problem is not that the lug is too short, but the spring pushing on it too weak (like a biro ) so a larger stronger one was added. that did the trick, after a few weeks of good shooting & working well,it decided not to open. oh joy. this time a hammer had a rough spot on its underside ,preventing it passing over the sear,and preventing opening, previously not noticed .lately the little falco has been fine, but I am waiting in anticipation. (Not bad for a new gun!!!)

On a lighter note,I have tried mr.Birds recipe on fireforming .303 British cases,( endtimes report) and report that it works ok.I did file the inside edge of the case rim round,as are shotshells and they fitted better.
I found a site for brass cases in the U.S. www.ballardrifle.com hope this is of interest ,
good shooting

I have a single shot folding .410 marked as Rowlatt and Sons, Wellingborough and I am interested in finding out how old it is.
Do you have any suggestions? I have already contacted Rowlatts who are now just a hardware shop and they say that such guns were made for them by the Midland Gun Company but none with their name since approx 1965. Gun is hammerless with an automatic sliding safety on the left side and is in very good condition. Thanks Quentin Hill

Midland Gun Co, See message, adverts1927, adverts1938

Corbin Mfg. & Supply, Inc

We manufacture both commercial and home shotgun swages, and have a .410 slug swage die set that fits any standard RCBS, Pacific, or similar slotted ram reloading press.
Checkout our suppliers page for details

To whom it may concern:
I am on a bit of a mission trying to identify a gun belonging to my father-in-law. He brought it out after our Easter meal on Sunday for discussion, and as a favor, I'd like to provide him with some information on it's lineage. The gun is similar to the one pictured below. It is a double-barrel shotgun, marked " WARD+SONS" near the trigger mount and engraved with "FINE LONDON TWIST" between the barrels.
When disassembled, we saw what appears to be a manufacturer's mark on the barrel mount which looked like two crossed swords, and the number "13" stamped onto the watertable. I am not very well-versed on guns, and don't even know for certain what type of shot the gun is made for, but after asking around on some of the message boards on the subject, I've been told that Ward & Sons may be a British manufacturer (not our Montgomery Wards, as I originally thought), but that's about it. I thank-you in advance for any insight you might be able to provide.
Anything at this point would be very rewarding in my quest.

Ward and Sons, Birmingham (UK), 1859-1960 (ish) Central Gun Works, 24-27 Bath St. Birmingham (Now under a Motorway (Freeway))!
By the mid 1920s they produced bar and back action ( like your picture) hammer shotguns and imported a number of Belgian guns for resale. Prices for their 3 grades of shotgun in 1920 were 11-00,12-00 and 13-00
In 1935 they moved to 2 St. Marys row, Birminham.
Last listing is 1960 these references come from "Boothroyd's Directory of British Gunmakers"
Geoffrey and Susan Boothroyd. Sand Lake Press. Library of Congress Card Catalogue No 94-067191

I noticed a lot of messages from people either wanting to have various guns identified or looking for parts. I've never been good at that without seeing the gun. But...
Numrich Gun Parts Corporation has a web site ( www.e-gunparts.com ).
There are various Q&A boards and a house brand/ manufacturer cross reference. I've found it helpful. Their catalog ($12.95) has schematic drawings of many (mainly American) guns and more parts than I can believe. There is an email address for international orders
Many thanks Bob.

I have a 410 single shot shotgun made by Midland gun co. Serial nr 14448.The gun is missing the butstock. Is there anyone who can tell me where i can find pictures or drawings of a stock,and also when it was made.
Thanks Steinar.

A brief history. Business: Gun and Cartridge makers. Founded in 1888 at 77 Bath Street then moved to Vesey Street in 1902. Made 410 cases in Short (2") and Long (2 1/2"). Their Telegraphic address was "Rifles Birmingham" and their telephone number was Central 1254.
During December 1956 they were absorbed into Parker Hale.
Best regards, Chris S.