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my father has a 410 single, hammer action foldup shotgun.he knows
very little about it but he did use it as a kid in the fifty's.
there appear to be no markings or serial no's.he has been told it
is probably belgian,is it possible to have an imported gun with
no markings.i would greatly appreciate any thoughts anyone may have.thanks,great
site by the way!
Can anybody tell about a 410 norica bolt action three shot gun.
I have been told it is Spanish, and is a fairly good gun? but I
cannot find any information about it.
I would also like to hear from other, 410 fans, who reloaded shells
and can share any pitfalls do's and don'ts.
||Wanted, original old fashioned coach gun
.410 pistol, 12” overall with hammers
I recently aquired an old game getter. I am looking for
a schematic or cut-away drawing of this gun. It is badly in need
of work. I see some one else who just aquired one cannot find a
serial number on it. The ser.# on mine is on the top edge of the
frame. You have to break open the action to see it. It is very faint
on my gun.
Black powder and the .410
Does anyone have practical experience, or know of recommended blackpowder
loads for the .410 shotgun? W.W. Greener in "Modern Shotguns"
(1891) says the standard load for a 2" .410 cartridge was 3/4
dram (20.5 grains) of powder behind 3/8 oz shot.
The Shooters Bible - Black powder Guide (1969) Appendix IV has
.410ga 1.5 Drams FFg powder (41 grains) and 3/8 oz shot for a "medium
load" and (on page 46)
.410ga 1.5 Drams FFg powder and 5/8 oz. shot for a "heavy load".
Apart from having to scrub the barrels out, are these workable/effective
I AM USING BLACK POWDER IN A MIDLAND .410
WITH 3 INCH CHAMBERS,I AM LOADING 1 DRAM OF S.N.P.E. MUSQUET AND
1/2 OZ BISMUTH NO 6 SHOT.IT HAS PROVED TO EFFECTIVE UP TO 30 YDS.
Wanted - Broken, rusted, neglected guns or parts thereof in
need of restoration. I am an amateur gunsmith working hard to
set up a new business offering cost effective refinishing services
but I need to build a portfolio of past work. I have both S1 & S2
certificates and can collect if necessary if you can help me please
get in touch
Last season I aquired a s/s 410 zabala double trigger game gun
which handled as sweet as a nut. however not being overly impressed
with bought ammo I purchased a 600jr press.
With fiocchi primers - 15 grains of hogden lil gun - 2 1/2 inch
remington cases - 5/8oz of no 7 shot and remington sp 410 wads.
If I shake the cases around with the shot in, I can just about get
the roll crimp over.
Wow!! on one phesant day i shot a left and right phesant, a left
and right hare (at 30 yds) and crossing phesant and a further 8
partridges most of which had travelled over guns that had shot at
them with there 12 bores.
Eat your heart out boys does that little gun wind em up I was well
impressed. I missed about 4 or 5 partridge but i would not say that
i would have hit them with my larger bore guns.
Its only fair to say that I have shot clays for england for 6 yrs
so im no country boy with a shot gun having said that I was rather
surprised with the results myself i have been to the same shoot
with my little baby on three further occasions with similar results.
hi, thought i had better share my new addiction (410s), have a
scout m6 by springfield & use 400 nitro brass 3" shells
for reloading . get them from the ammo dump (web site www.theammodump.com)
not cheap but exchange rate good for uk. just bought some .375 lead
round balls (muzzel load) by hornady. looking forward to stacking
them 3 with cut down wads for spacing . might be usefull for SMALL
roos, goats,pigs .dog &fox regards john : (west australia)
p.s. have been having problems with misfires using rifle primers
in the 400 nitro brass . searched the web & found a black powder
site . he recomended drilling the primer hole with a 15/64ths drill
bit & fitting 209 primers no more troubles...ps had to counteer
sink with a larger bit to recess primer cup lip also needed a tiny
rub with a round file.. regards john
I have been told that the Winchester 9410 Traditional with
Invector chokes is only available in UK as FAC 9 shot magazine.
This seems strange as others have the 3 shot plug but I cannot find
who imports them to clarify the situation. Anyone know who imports
and E -Mail address? Michael Liddell
Hi When I was younger in 60s-70s I used to collect guns and shoot
also, I had 2X 410s made from the old 303 rifle Mk1 and the P4,
I liked the 410 it was great for poaching I had the folding one
that fitted inside parka pocket, I also had one which i found in
an old farm auction it wasnt till got it home found out it was made
by Purdey and must have been used in early 1900s, it was single
barrel, and inlaid in gold with a damascus barrel,it was a smashing
wee gun,and well worth the £4 i paid at the auction, yes those were
My first shotgun was a cooey a canadian single 410, it was bought
out our local fishing sports shop for £13, that was in 70s, from
then on I was hooked and bought one whenever I saw one , no one
seemed to want a 410 when they could all get 12 bores, the 9mm garden
gun was another that some people would mistaken for a 410 and also
was used with a solid shell although wasnt supposed to do but my
pal and I always experimented, as for firing pins not first time
just used a 1" nail cut down, and used as firing pin,anyone wants
to chat on guns contact me for chats,
I would like to get some information on a gun I own. It is a JC
Higgens 4-10 bolt action tube fed.
Any information you can send me
would be great.
J. C. Higgins was a trademark used
on Sears & Roebucks’ house-brand guns and sporting goods, including
bicycles, fishing rods, roller skates, and gun cleaning kits from
1946 until 1962. However, Sears never manufactured any of the products
bearing the J. C. Higgins name. Instead, it contracted with other
manufacturers to produce a specially marked model for them, often,
but not always, a cheaper version. The tube feed on a bolt action
.410 shotgun identifies it gun as a Stevens Model 59, sometimes
called the Model 39, made from 1934 to 1973. Value is only nominal.
Am looking for info on Noble Model 80 auto 410 shotgun.
I have one, given to me in a " taken apart " condition, seem like
there are parts missing. Would you by chance know of a source that
may have drawings on this gun, would like to put this one back together.
Its in good condition otherwise. thanks,
The Noble Model 80 was manufactured
in 1965-67 by the Noble Mfg. Co. The Noble Mfg. Co., located in
Haydenville, MA, was in business from 1950 to 1970 and manufactured
a line of inexpensive shotguns and .22 rifles. Their .410 automatic
also was sold by Harrington & Richardson as its Model 403 (one source
says 401) auto. My information says that H&R made it only during
1964. I have no information about what sort of connection the two
companies had. Both models are pictured in the 4-10 nostalgia pages.
Gun Parts Corporation, West Hurley, NY 12491, www.gunpartscorp.com,
catalogs some parts for the Noble Model 80, but has no diagram showing
their relationship. Their huge catalog costs $12.95 in the US and
is worth every penny as an authoritative education in old guns Marshall
I have a Webley and Scott .410 bolt action and would like
to know its age. Does anyone know of a website or a book that can
date my shotgun?
WANTED- Parts for LEINAD, I need the pin that holds the
trigger asm. and the barrel together. And the lock ring to keep
it in place. Thanks,
WANTED- A choke tap in .410 for Browning Invector chokes.
I have three .410s I would like to add choke tubes if I can find
a tap for my gunsmith. Thanks, Jason
I am looking for some info on an EL CHIMBO 410 shotgun,
It is an over/under double hammer double trigger, it has a walnut
hand carved checked stock made in spain any info would be appreciated.
I am located in Canada.
I have been reading this site for a few weeks now. I just purchased
my first .410 about three weeks ago, an H&R Pardner. I like
single shot guns, I already have a Savage model 220A in a twenty,
and an Ithaca 66 in 12 gauge. From what I have read on other forums,
it seems that not too many people like the .410. A lot of them really
trash them, one going so far as to say it should be outlawed.
I don't hunt anymore, I haven't for years, but from what I have
read and experienced in the past, a .410 should take just about
any game the larger ones will, if you keep within range. Most of
the time we didn't hunt with dogs, and more often than not quail,
pheasant and grouse would flush close enough for a .410. They often
flushed too close for a shot until they had moved further away.
I personally feel that most birds can be taken with them, even though
geese would have to be coming in over decoys.
I also feel that most people feel that bigger has to be better,
but I think that the trend to a 12 loaded with two ounces of shot
tends to make people take shots beyond their range. Obviously a
heavily loaded shell from a 12 or a 10 can use larger shot than
a .410, and much more of it, so the pattern of a heavilly loaded
12 with BB shot is going to be better than 11/16 oz. of fours in
I really don't believe that a .410 will put out a four foot shotstring,
as I have read. I understand the longer, thinner shotstring, But
I can't believe that one pellet is following another in a string
all the way to point of impact. I also believe that a .410 slug
is probably good on deer to about forty, or maybe fifty yards.
I bought a couple of boxes of Rottweil Brenneke to try through my
new full choke gun. I wouldn't want to try a bear with a .410, but
I am sure that it has been done before.I also think that five 00
buck coming from a .410 would have to do some damage, at close range,
but I would never think to try it on something like a bear, unless
there was no other choice.
I will say that when I hunted, it was mostly with my 20 gauge. I
used to enjoy pass shooting for ducks, and I would use whatever
load of number four shot that I had, including the old 7/8 ounce
field loads. It worked fine to about forty yards.
I will close now, since this is such a long post. If anyone is interested
in custom handloaded ammo, try www.starsandstripesammo.com.
They offer just about any loading that you may want, in just about
any gauge, length, or caliber. They will ship overseas to places
that it can be done.I found them messing around on the net.
I am urgently trying to source a 'Browning Lite Elite Game in
.410 with 30" barrels' I do not wish to pay the earth, and wonder
if anyone would know of a reasonable dealer to supply said shotgun???
I HAVE A 410 SIDE BY SIDE HAMMER GUN WHICH WAS GIVEN TO ME BY A
FRIEND. ON THE RIB BETWEEN THE BARRELS IT SAYS "TWIST BELGIUM",
AND ON THE LEFT SIDE PLATE "PRITZLAFF QUALITY". DOES ANYONE
KNOW ANY HISTORY ON THIS GUN?
WOULD IT BE SAFE TO FIRE MODERN 410 2.5 INCH SHELLS IN THIS GUN?
IF NOT CAN I RELOAD LIGHTER LOADS TO USE? THE GUN APPEARS TO BE
IN VERY SOUND CONDITION AND I WOULD LIKE TO USE IT FOR RABBIT AND
SQUIRREL HUNTING AND PERHAPS FOR A LITTLE SKEET SHOOTING. ANY HELP
ON THIS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
KEN HOHENSTEIN PLEASANT PRAIRIE, WISCONSIN USA
I have recently aquired a games getter hand gun and i would
like to restore it. any possible leads. its barrel is 18 - 20 inches
long. very old gun. neat piece
I was wondering if anyone can provide any historical information
on a .410 spanish shotgun and any information on parts. It is a
side by side double barrel, double hammer with a lever on the right
side of the action to open the hinge and a button on the left that
enables it to fold up. "Marco Registrada EL FAISAN" is stamped
on the top of both barrels at the breach in a circular patteren
with a picture of a peasant on a branch in the center. Made in Spain
and El Faisan - Elgoibor (Espana) is stamped on the left and right
barrel respectifly. The gun is smallish and slender compared to
a 12 gauage with the barrels measuring about 28 inches long. The
gun weighs about 3 pounds and has a total lenght of 43 and one half
Iwas wondering if you could tell me where to get the barnaul ammo
410 bore. I live in the county durham area.
I live in Oklahoma, USA. I have acquired an O/U .410 bore shotgun.
The only markings I can find on the barrel are the word "ARTHEMUS"
and the marking "CAL 36". I have not been able to locate any
proofs or stamps. Do you have any idea who manufactured this firearm
& where it was manufactured?
I have a 410 or 36g shotgun stamped
the same It is a rizzini by the firm B Rizzini in Italy, the only
difference is mine is the model Aurum . mine is quarter and half
choke 3" chambered Hope this helps G. Allison (UK)
I got a 4-10 shotgun from my grandpa and it was taken apart. I
need the schematics for it, its a Sears Roebuck mod. 21 4-10
GA 583.2087. I haven't been able to find anything about it if u
could help it would be greatly appreciated.
Your Sears Model 21 is a High Standard
Flite King pump action shotgun. Please note that there are two distinct
models called Flite King and for a time, both were produced concurrently.
To further confuse things, High Standard also applied the name Flite
King to several pistols and a .22 automatic rifle.
Fortunately, we know that only the second High Standard designed
pump appears in .410 bore (plus 20 and 28 gauges). This version
features an aluminum receiver and twin action bars and was in production
from about 1960 until 1973. High Standard originally introduced
this model in about 1960 (and discontinued it in 1973), the name
"Sears" dates the gun as being sold near the end of that period.
From 1942 to 1962, Sears used the Name "J. C. Higgins" on its sporting
goods, then for a rather short period, it used the name of baseball
Hall of Famer Ted Williams," and finally settling on its own name,
probably in about 1966.
The earlier pump shotgun has a steel frame and a single action bar,
was introduced in 1952, was made only in 12, 16, and 20 gauges,
and was called the J. C. Higgins Model 20 or later the High Standard
Model 200. A 12 gauge version remained in production until about
1975. Marshall Williams
I am looking for a pair of what I think was called
a Savage Four Tenner tube. They are a bore reduction tube
which allows a 410 shell to be fired thru a 20 gauge shotgun. They
are about 12" long with an O-ring at the fore end. Can you help
me locate a pair. Thank you.
Thank you very much for your assistance.
I received offers from two persons and purchased a pair of the four-tenner
tubes from one of them.
Again, thank you.
Can anyone provide any information an a 14Bore (!) Westley Richard's
S/S Hammer gun it has an unusual safety catch which is located underneath
the stock to the rear of the trigger guard.
I would apperacate any information on my Ithaca lever action
single shot mod. 66. The only number I can find on the gun is
660233505. It may be the serial number. It has a 26 in. full choke
bbl. and is in great condition. Thank you very much --Ralph
Ithaca made it's rather neat little
Model 66 single shot made in 12 and 20 gauges, and 410 bore from
1963-1978. Its most distinctive feature is its straight grip and
opening lever, an under lever which has a finger loop like the lever
on a Winchester rifle. On special-order, it could be purchased with
a vent rib and there was a 20 gauge "slug gun" for deer hunting
which had a 22" barrel, recoil pad and rifle sights. It is not especially
valuable, being priced more as a "user" than as a "collectible,"
but apparently the .410 version is uncommon as Fjested' Blue Book
of Gun Values adds a 33% premium for it. Ithaca made a Youth Model
66 and a "Long Tom" Model 66 in 12 gauge with 36 inch barrel.
is worth a look at.
I WAS GIVEN THIS SHOTGUN (STEVENS 240 410\410) BY FATHER
WHEN I WAS EIGHT YEARS OLD. I AM LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT HAND HAMMER
TO REPAIR THE GUN. I WOULD LIKE TO PASS THE GUN ON TO MY SON. ANY
INFORMATION YOU CAN GIVE ME WOULD BE A GREAT HELP.
THANK YOU, THOMAS C. ROWLAND
Numrich has sold out (http://www.e-gunparts.com/product.asp?chrProductSKU=150140&MC=),
any help appreciated.
WINCHESTER 9410 0R MARLIN LEVER ACTION
Hi, Hope someone can help me out with some info.
Are the Winchester 9410 & Marlin 410 available on SGC or are
they Sec.1 FAC?
I've read that York guns are selling the Winchester, but is anyone
in the UK selling the Marlin?
Update - Just bought a very nice new Winchester 9410 on
SGC from Wiltshire Rod & Gun, 135 Victoria Road, SWINDON, SN1 3BU:
01793-497455 for £410 inc vat. Heard the Marlin should be out some
time in the autumn. Sean
Many Thanks, (Editor).
I'm looking for information as to where I can purchase the above
guns in the u.k.Any help would be appreciated. I'm very interested
in any old lever action 410 shot guns. So if any body out there
has this type of gun and is willing to sell please contact me with
details and price.
(2 May 2002) Just to let you know that York Guns
have the above gun (Winchester 9410) in stock £600 inc vat.
I have just purchased one from G.T.Shooting for £475 inc vat. big
difference in price.
TEL: YORK GUNS Tel 01904 487180 Fax 01904 487185
TEL: G.T. SHOOTING 020 8660 6843 (53 CHIPSTEAD
VALLEY ROAD COULSDON, SURREY, CR5 2RB, UK)
Many thanks Joe.
See also Win9410
down the page.
On a recent trip to UK, I purchased several 410 shotguns that were
headed for the scrap yard due to short barrels (under 23 inches
and various other problems. The problem I have is that most of them
are missing the firing pin, the screw that holds it in and any related
springs. Does anyone know of a source of firing pins for
these guns, some of the makes are Army & Navy, Harrods Dept. Store
and the rest appear to be Belgian Guild guns. I could make the pins
if I had any idea of what they looked like, anyone have old drawings
or catalogs with parts pictued. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you, John
Hello, I was given my greatgrandfather's 1888 Bonehill shotgun,
and I restored it (it had a broken stock - it was a fine example
of English walnut so I repaired and rechecked), tooled a duplicate
firing pin (it is a double rebounding side hammer style), and rewelded
the damascus barrel. I returned it to my father after finishing
the job. As he became ill, the original canvas case was lost and
the trigger guard. This is a very important heirloom and I would
dearly love to replace the missing trigger guard and possibly
obtain another canvas case. I intend to restore the weapon and
mount it in a matching walnut case, intact but not to be shot again
as my grandfather shot modern load from the weapon.
I hope that you can provide advice or guidance on obtaining these
items. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my
Sincerely, Leslie Smith
I was wondering if anyone has info/manuals/anything on a CBC
Model 651 single shot Shotgun. I inherited one from my father,
its a sawn off model thats the same length from front to back as
my fingertips to my elbow, its got a wooden pistol grip. I cant
find any info or even such a model on cbc.com.br The gun was purchased
by my father from a friend in the South African police force, I've
been told that these single shot sawn offs where used for riot control
with rubber bullets. Also for anyone who knows about this gun or
this make, is CBC any good?, or are they cheap junk? I'm also wondering
if the gun was produced as a shortened sawn off model or if the
model 651 is a full length shotgun that someone had altered before
my dad made the purchase. Any info whatsoever would be greatly appreciated
many thanx Sheldon
Does anyone out there have a copy of the manual for this shot gun?
Any help you can provide would be appreciated.
'Gauch I.G.A. Made in Brazil 410 GA, 3" Chamber Imported
by Stoeger, Ind., N.J. from I.G.A. Brazil. '
Wanted 9mm (flobert) Bernadelli semi automatic garden gun
either 5 shot or 3 shot
I wonder if anyone can help. I am looking to replace the plastic
front sight and ramp on the Winchester 9410 with a steel
sight and ramp. Does anyone know if the 94 rifle screw on ramp and
sight fit the shotgun? If so where could I get one in the UK? Thanks
Hi The Winchester 9410 is to all
intents and purposes the same as the model 94 rifle all the bits
fit right on (including the scope mounts if you want to shoot slugs)
However just to be sure call a mainline winchester dealer who will
be able to check (most will have stock now of 9410's and 9422's
Look the same on my two Hope this helps Rich
I NEED A SOURCE TO GET ONCE FIRED 410- 3" PLASTIC HULLS.
CAN'T SEEM TO FIND THEM HERE (CALIFORNIA. USA), AT LEAST NOT
YET. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU CAN HELP. PRICE ETC.
Precision Reloading (800-223-0900)
sometimes has 3" hulls. The last two times I've called they've
been in stock (no I didn't buy all of them... I did buy all
but a hundred of the 2 1/2" Rems though). I don't think most
.410 hulls make it to the web site. The first time I ordered,
they weren't even counted when I bought them...all. They say
they very occasionally get 3" Winchesters. Their hulls have
always been in good shape and shipped fast. Nice people. You
might get a few with a very slightly raised circle (3/16"
diam) in the plastic about an inch from the rim. Best anyone
I know can figure, its a mark from a conformal transducer
in a pressure gun. They load just fine and last as long.
Now the bad news- Remington 3" .410's aren't 3" anymore. They're
2 7/8"!!! The base wad looks the same to me. For some of my
hunting loads (from Lyman's 4 th) I've been trimming the wad
petals to get the shot to fit real 3" hulls for years. Trimming
a bit more might work. The rest of the bad news is ten cents
a piece up to 499 pcs, 9.6 cents for 500 up to 999, and 9
cents each for a thousand and up. Web site is www.precisionreloading.com
I know you wanted once fired but depending on your luck you
may want to consider new hulls. Cheddite 3" are available
on and off- Grafs had them last I looked. Ballistic Products'
"Multi-Hull" may be available- who knows, they may even have
the promised data (don't hold your breath). Also when it is
available BPI data tends to be anemic. The "multi-hull" appears
to be made by Martigoni in Italy. Its owned by Nobelsport
which is owned by SNPE. SNPE is French owned which might be
pro or con, depending on your politics. If the hulls are the
same as Nobelsport, you wouldn't be missing anything. Most
imported hulls seem to have a larger interior diameters than
what we're used to. In the past I've noticed powder migration
with Cheddite 20 ga hulls and US wads.
Sorry I can't be of more help, but I don't think there IS
a continuous source for once fired 3" hulls. 2 1/2" STS do
seem to be more and more available though.
Take care, Bob.
I'm trying to find information on a 4-10 gauge shotgun from
Brazil. I don't know much about shotguns and was hoping someone
could help me out.
I'm trying to find out about the firing pattern at 75 feet (25 m)
with a Winchester super-x 3" cartridge. Also, how many pellets are
in this particular cartridge and if this shotgun comes in both double
and single barrels.
I presently have a Stevens .410 3" chamber, single shot, no ser#
or model #. I took it to my gunsmith for repair to the extractor
While at the gunsmith I saw the IGA Stoeger SxS 410 Coach Gun.
I am looking for a reliable 410. Is the IGA/Stoeger a reliable gun
off the shelf, without doing any modifications ? Thanks for the
Just to let everyone know Marlin is now making there own
levergun.As to whether it will be effective or not is any ones
guess but it is good that manufactures are starting to look at the
Some kids here in Missouri use .410s to kill turkeys
and I have a 7 year old who wants to hunt. Wondering if you could
shed any light on whether I should let him use this gun and if you
could recommend the best loads for a turkey's head.
Mike, Its not the
best idea in the world but if you pattern the gun and stay within
the range where you're getting effective patterns it will work.
That will likely be around 25 yards with a full choke. It gets expensive
buying boxes of .410's to pattern.
I've got almost 3 rolls of rosin paper (3' x about 160' long) cut
up in 3' pieces with .410 patterns on them. All I can say for sure
is that the "best" shell in one gun can be the "worst" in another.
An "average" reload usually beats the best factory load. Many full
choke .410's throw extremely center dense patterns at 25 yards or
so- center that pattern and your son has got a turkey.
If your slightly off, that dense circle is only around 12"-14"-
sometimes less and you'll have a wounded bird.
I have a couple of Amish neighbors that have used .410's on turkey.
Its rumored that one used buckshot for a body shot. "Rumored" because
I don't know if its legal and come to think of it I forget exactly
who that was...
The other guy used Federal 3" 6's. It worked; one shot.
Good Luck, Bob
I am requesting the combined knowledge of all of us
devoted .410s. I have a .410 pistol, called the " SERENA HANDI-GUN"
(Italian,not american). It is a single shot, sliding breech. All
steel construction, looks a lot like a 45 model 1911, with an 18.5"
cylinder bore barrel. I have shot gamebirds with this gun, and most
enjoyed that. It also has a wire stock.
I wanted to re-blue the barrel, and took it to a gunsmith that I
have trade with before, and he broke several parts on it, upon dissasembly.
This caused such a fuss, I got it back in pieces. I have searched
all around for parts, and info. I have been somewhat sucessfull.
I now have a handwritten letter from Mr. Serena, and the old sales
Apparently, the gun was made in the 50's, and was a "pot-gun". Also
advertised was a mention that it was quite effective for shooting
large fish. It was made in 410, and 28 guage. Many barrel lengths
were offered, mine has a legal length for the US. I have been looking
for someone that has one, or wants to sell me parts,or has experience
in repairing this model.
No parts are available at Numerich, or any of the 68 suppliers/gunsmiths
in the US that offer hard to find parts. I have been on a mission
to find any thing for 5 years. This website has provided me with
a mention of the pistol that was offered
in the UK years ago, alas they are not able to help me either. So
this is a request for help.....thanks to all that shoot 410's.
This is the web site for MCA Sports/Ace Bullet Company in Alaska.
They offer barrel inserts for shotguns. www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm
I know it is illegal for y'all to have them but it is also and interesting
site for those that want to increase to make drillings out of their
double .410s or increase cartridge options for their m6 scouts.
Thanks, Charles S.
I would appreciate any information that anyone may be able to give
me to help identify an old family heirloom 410 single barrel shotgun
that has been passed down from great grandfather.
The 410 is supposed to be Belgian and is definitely pre
WW2. It folds up neatly and has a hammer activated firing mech.
The only markings I can find are on the underside of the breech
which are a triangle enclosing the letters ELF with an asterix under
the letters and, a further set of marks arranged in a vertical fashion
with a squiggle above a star above the letters JH. Anthony
I wonder if anyone can help me with the following questions.
I hold a UK Shotgun Certificate/Licence.
I have held great affection for the 303 lee-Enfield rifle
ever since my time as an Army Cadet.
I have heard of Lee-Enfield .303 rifles converted to .410
My question is three part:
1. Will a UK Shotgun certificate allow me to keep a .410
If so how is the magazine capacity/removable
magazine part of the shotgun regs handled?
2. Roughly what would one cost? i.e. for a reasonable conditioned
3. Does anyone know where/who deals in such a specialised
Many thanks. Rob Harris
Response to your questions
1- Yes a SGC allows you to posses the above however the older
versions with detachable box are now S1 as they are in excess
of three shot, also mags must be pinned or welded in and certified
by the proof house. So ensure you have said restriction certificate.
Most were simply converted to single shot as the mags never
ever worked properly with shotgun shells and these have no
2- £150 should get you a very good one, I have seen average
guns for £75
3- No particular dealers spring to mind but the magazine "Gun
Mart" always has a few every month
I have recently purchased an MEC 600 Jr. reloading
machine in .410 as well as a number of other bits and pieces and
though you might be interested in a few figures which I have calculated
on the costs of reloading your own cartridges.
Analysis in terms of component costs (excluding
the "hull") shows that I reduce the cost of 2.5 " .410 cartridges
from 15.6p each, new, to a cost of just over 8p each when reloaded.
Also an intriguing fact came to light. On a shell by shell basis
the saving is smallest in reloading the 2" cartridges and biggest
in reloading the 3" shells, where the cost drops from 19.6p each
to about 7.5p each. As this seems strange for the 3" shell the reason
is a lower powder load, which is the most expensive component and
only a slight increase in the shot load, which is relatively cheap.
The cartridge prices are based on my local shop when buying in lots
of 250 cartridges. There may well be cheaper suppliers about. The
component cost breakdown for the 2 1/2 " shells (1/2 oz shot) I
am reloading is as follows :
||This is obviously a significant
cost reduction, but I have spent quite a lot on kit e.g. Machine,
roll turnover head, MEC bushing to suit the recipe I use, drill
stand and scales. I have calculated that at my present rate
of shooting - about 150 cartridges a month on clay pigeon shooting
- that the whole investment will have broken even in about 2
years. Of course there are two factors which are not included
in the calculations, namely the initial cost of getting hold
of the hulls to reload and the cost of my time. I am told that
you can reload hulls safely only 3 or 4 times, so I will have
to source some new or once-fired hulls, which will increase
the costs. As to my time, I think I have found a new part of
my hobby - so I don't include the costs of that.
A serious word on warning. We are STRONGLY advised
to check weigh the powder load that a particular bushing delivers
because of variations in powder density from batch to batch. I NOW
KNOW WHY. With one particular powder the bushing is supposed to
deliver 15.9 grains. But when I checked the amount actually delivered
it was 16.6 grains. This is possibly within the tollerances for
the 2 1/2" load, but I do not propose to start experimenting with
a 3/4 grain increase in load when my faces is only 4 inches from
the breech. Because of the relatively high breech pressures we are
dealing with anyway, when you move to the 3" magnum cartridges with
a smaller powder load and bigger shot load, the pressure becomes
more sensitive to this level of error. The moral of the storey is
to ALWAYS CHECK WEIGH THE POWDER. I am enjoying the new challenge
of making my own cartridges and God willing I will survive long
enough to see a significant reduction in the overall costs, but
as various articles have said. SAFETY DOESNT HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT.
A Happy, prosperous and SAFE New Year to all"
Yours sincerely Nic
I have recently run across a Spanish SxS in fine condition stamped
" Parkemy". I have done some research, but very little information
is available. I know that the gun is manufactured by Amadeo Pinada.
It seems well made and this particular model is highly engraved,
but the finish work of the stock does not seem to compare with the
quality of the machining. Do these guns have a reputation of being
well made and how do they compare with other Spanish or English
Thanks you for any information
that you may have available. John
(new parts, sights, and tools. !st rate outfit), and Numrich/Gun
Parts Corp. Web: e-GunParts.com
or toll free fax:877-GUNPART, have parts and tools. Be VERY specific
with Numrich whether the parts you are interested in are new manuf.
(sleazy), or original ones. (Been stung myself.), Dave
In the USA, the Federal "gubmint" has decreed that 18"
of barrel and 26" overall length is "legal".
This did away with the fine Marble's " Game-Getter"
as it had various length short barrels and a folding stock.
I have had hassles with idiot cops who did not know Federal
law and thought that my cut-to-24" barrel SxS was illegal
because it was "sawed-off and sawed-off shotguns are illegal."
Don't fudge on the lengths unless you are willing to pay alot
of money to do it legally thru a class 3 dealer. Dave
It appears that most if not all, of the SxS, sidelever,
hammers-thru-the-top-tang, (kind of a "boxlock" arrangement,
with no sidelock plates), folding .410's were of Belgian manuf.
(At least what little info. I've been able to come up with
Does anyone know if guns of this pattern were manuf. in
Britain or elswhere other than Belgium?(I think there may
have been a few from South America, but have no facts...)
Also want to know if any were made with 3" chambers. Thanks,
The IGA/Stoeger SxS, available in .410, may
be unavailable soon (24 Nov 2002) , so if you are "wavering"
about whether to get one now or wait a bit, you might pony up the
dough while you can still buy one. (Rumour is that Berretta has
bought them out.(???))
A good friend, who previously turned me on to John
Humphries' books Poachers' Tales & Tales Of The Old Poachers, and
I have the same taste in scatter-pieces, such as some of the small-bored,
handy little guns in the illustrations.
Anyway, between John Humphries and mo phral "egging
me on", I tackled my IGA with a new mill file and have converted
in into a " round action" by radiusing the corners of the
very heavily built receiver, and the forend "iron". (Be careful
here as the forend iron has hollows that could be cut into if you
(A true "round action" is a VERY high zoot gun
indeed, and a "filed on" low-grade but sturdy and servicable gun
like the IGA is as close as I'me going to be able to get.) I "poacher-stocked"
the butt with the cut-out that has been used on shortened fowling
pieces since flintlock days, so as to balance what was going to
I then cut the barrels to 18 1/4", (legal length
in the U.S.), and squared up the muzzles. Since the balance was
still just a hair fwd. of the hinge pin, I cut down the thick "beavertail"
forend to the less bulky, lighter, older style and more visually
pleasing "splinter forend" configuration. ( I will apply Micro-Bed
underneath because the inlet is not good here and all the strain
of keeping the forend from "working" sideways falls on the forend
latch & lug.)
What remains to be done is to get the tooling for
installing threaded choke tubes and install at least one in the
left barrel, tho I plan to do both barrels.
I'me going to get a sling hanger for doubles to
install on the under rib, dovetail the rib for one of my AO/(now
XS) tritium center white bead front sights and once I have finished
up the rough spots, apply black "spray n' bake" moly/poxy paint
finish from Brownell's. (This is a very tough and weather-proof
The little gun is MUCH handier, has shed a noticeable
bit of weight, and balances perfectly now. Having the selection
of replaceable chokes should make it "perf" for everything from
shooting bunnies in thick brushy areas where they pop out right
under your feet, to longer range of maybe up to 30 yds. for game
like squirrells moving high up in thick foliaged trees. (I understand
this is called "versatility".) I'll be able to "tailor" the choke
to the load I want to use, as I shoot .395 and .375 roundballs and
want to develop some coarse shot loads with BB and #2 shot, as well
as the factory #4, #5, #6, and #7 1/2 shot sizes. I will be able
to pick the optimum choke for whatever size shot I choose to put
thru the gun, as well as the distance and game that I am poking
around after on a particular day.
For me the only thing that would make it better
would be to have external hammers and the ability to fold-up like
a jack knife, (as some smaller bored guns still do.) Dave
Smith & Midgley - Could anyone offer any information regarding
this shotgun? Anything with regard to its history etc? I believe
it was made by Midland Gun Co. Thank you. Brenda de Lange
If you are considering one of these, keep in mind
that they only feed 2 1/2" shells and are cyl. bore ONLY, (so far.)
You should be able to have one adapted for screw-in choke tubes,
but this is a weapon I cannot really figure out an appropriate "mission"
for, myself. I'me biased in favor of single shots and doubles over
repeater because I have never been able to connect with that third
shot anyway. Also, maybe because of better balance, (or maybe just
likeing doubles better than repeaters), I have had great difficulty
even making a "double" with a repeater, but not so with SxS's. Regards
I bought one of the 9410's over
a year ago, patterned it, and it sat in the safe for 6 months.
They're not only cylinder bore
but a "bad" cylinder bore- don't know how else to describe it.
They're also about the worst .410's I've tried for shooting slugs.
As I post as "Bunny Hunter" on quite a few message boards, mine
has a mission. I guess you really have to love lever guns. Winchester,
however, is really ripping people off.
I've had Colonial Arms choke tubes
installed. They're great. I'm thinking about having a couple other
barrels done. The only tooling I found was around $700 and no one
in Ohio was doing the work. I finally sent it (actually my dealer
did) to Mike Orlen in Mass. The whole thing w/
3 tubes, S&H, and dealer mark up was about $130. His work is fast,
precise, and relatively inexpensive. I certainly recommend him.
After a lot of shooting, and a few modifications, I've found ( other
than fiber optic front bead falls out after a thousand rounds or
so) that I don't miss the 3" shell. I shoot just as well with a
Just a thought- have you tried
the reamer rental places for the choke tube tooling?
Take care, Bob
A couple of months after the 9410
started shipping, Winchester changed the fine print on their web
site. If you read it carefully it now says that whatever the 9410
shoots should be considered "full choke" for the .410. But they
are selling well, so who knows... From my patterning it shoots cyl
or worse and spotty/ clumpy. With the tubes, its like a different
gun. Since I shoot trap with it I replaced the factory shallow "V"
with a Williams WGOS rear sight and used the aperture carrier from
the WGRS without the aperture. The rear blade was blocking my view
of the rising clay. This works pretty well. I've handled the "packer"
model and really like it. Not enough to buy one though.
Take care, Bob
See also Win9410
up the page.
I recently inherited a Marbles game getter. It is a long
barreled pistol with a folding stock. It has over-under barrels
with the capacity to fire .22, .410 and .44. I can't seem to find
much information on this thing. It has no serial numbers apparent
on it anywhere. It's in excellent shape and the original shoulder
holster is with it.
What I would like to find is the history, approximate date of manufacture
and approximate value. Although I don't intend to sell it, I would
like to know its' value for insurance purposes.
See the article by Marshall Williams,
The Marbles Gamegetter
I also inherited a double barrel twelve gauge manufactured by the
Geo. W Worthington co. of Cleveland, Ohio. I don't think this
shotgun has much value, but any information, or links to information
on either of these guns would be greatly appreciated.
George Worthington Co. Cleveland,
Ohio seems to have been a large Hardware store (haven't found any
dates but doesn't seem to be there now). Worthingtons guns were
probabily made by Crescent Firearms, have a look at " Grampa's
Shotgun: More Than Sentimental Value" ( http://www.briley.com/grampa.html)
I own a Worthington Special single 410 gauge shotgun which
my Grandfather bought new in the 1920s.
I was hoping someone might be able to give me the value or the history
of the gun and of the Worthington company.
Thanks, Steve ( Cincinnati, Ohio USA )
See comments on G. Worthington
I recently got an Italian falco d/b hammerless 3" 410,and
would like to share with everyone my problems before they buy one
when it arrived,(mail order) shock and horror! no rib & the breach
is a lump of steel with the barrels sticking out of it. after a
good drink and sleep I decided to keep it ,so the first job was
to shorten the stock an inch or so! then for a shot. that went fine,until
I tried to open the gun .the underlever, while being quite smooth
had to be forced extremely hard to open. no good sending it back
after cutting the stock.
Off to the shed,stripped it down and shortened the locking bolt-lug
also polishing (finishing) most parts. back up the paddock and all
is well but still very hard to open.after two more operations it
we fired about 75 rounds at clays, then a misfire on the second
barrel on inspection the gun had opened enough for the firing pin
to miss the primer. the problem is not that the lug is too short,
but the spring pushing on it too weak (like a biro ) so a larger
stronger one was added. that did the trick, after a few weeks of
good shooting & working well,it decided not to open. oh joy. this
time a hammer had a rough spot on its underside ,preventing it passing
over the sear,and preventing opening, previously not noticed .lately
the little falco has been fine, but I am waiting in anticipation.
(Not bad for a new gun!!!)
On a lighter note,I have tried mr.Birds recipe on fireforming .303
British cases,( endtimes
report) and report that it works ok.I did file the inside edge
of the case rim round,as are shotshells and they fitted better.
I found a site for brass cases in the U.S. www.ballardrifle.com
hope this is of interest ,
I have a single shot folding .410 marked as Rowlatt and Sons,
Wellingborough and I am interested in finding out how old it is.
Do you have any suggestions? I have already contacted Rowlatts who
are now just a hardware shop and they say that such guns were made
for them by the Midland Gun Company but none with their name since
approx 1965. Gun is hammerless with an automatic sliding safety
on the left side and is in very good condition. Thanks Quentin Hill
Midland Gun Co, See message,
Corbin Mfg. & Supply, Inc
We manufacture both commercial and home shotgun swages, and have
a .410 slug swage die set that fits any standard RCBS, Pacific,
or similar slotted ram reloading press.
Checkout our suppliers
page for details
To whom it may concern:
I am on a bit of a mission trying to identify a gun belonging to
my father-in-law. He brought it out after our Easter meal on Sunday
for discussion, and as a favor, I'd like to provide him with some
information on it's lineage. The gun is similar to the one pictured
below. It is a double-barrel shotgun, marked " WARD+SONS"
near the trigger mount and engraved with "FINE LONDON TWIST" between
When disassembled, we saw what appears to be a manufacturer's mark
on the barrel mount which looked like two crossed swords, and the
number "13" stamped onto the watertable. I am not very well-versed
on guns, and don't even know for certain what type of shot the gun
is made for, but after asking around on some of the message boards
on the subject, I've been told that Ward & Sons may be a British
manufacturer (not our Montgomery Wards, as I originally thought),
but that's about it. I thank-you in advance for any insight you
might be able to provide.
Anything at this point would be very rewarding in my quest.
Ward and Sons, Birmingham (UK),
1859-1960 (ish) Central Gun Works, 24-27 Bath St. Birmingham (Now
under a Motorway (Freeway))!
By the mid 1920s they produced bar and back action ( like your picture)
hammer shotguns and imported a number of Belgian guns for resale.
Prices for their 3 grades of shotgun in 1920 were £11-00,£12-00
In 1935 they moved to 2 St. Marys row, Birminham.
Last listing is 1960 these references come from "Boothroyd's Directory
of British Gunmakers"
Geoffrey and Susan Boothroyd. Sand Lake Press. Library of Congress
Card Catalogue No 94-067191
I noticed a lot of messages from people either wanting to have
various guns identified or looking for parts. I've never been good
at that without seeing the gun. But...
Numrich Gun Parts Corporation has a web site ( www.e-gunparts.com
There are various Q&A boards and a house brand/ manufacturer cross
reference. I've found it helpful. Their catalog ($12.95) has schematic
drawings of many (mainly American) guns and more parts than I can
believe. There is an email address for international orders
Many thanks Bob.
I have a 410 single shot shotgun made by Midland
gun co. Serial nr 14448.The gun is missing the butstock. Is
there anyone who can tell me where i can find pictures or drawings
of a stock,and also when it was made.
A brief history. Business: Gun and Cartridge
makers. Founded in 1888 at 77 Bath Street then moved to Vesey Street
in 1902. Made 410 cases in Short (2") and Long (2 1/2"). Their Telegraphic
address was "Rifles Birmingham" and their telephone number was Central
MIDLAND GUN CO.
DEMON GUN WORKS
During December 1956 they were absorbed into Parker Hale.
Best regards, Chris S.